Speaker 1: 0:56

Thank you. Welcome to the Never Been Promoted podcast and YouTube channel. I'm on a mission to help you cut the tie to all the things that are holding you back so you can unleash your entrepreneur. Welcome to Never Been Promoted. Hello, I'm your host, thomas Helfrich, here in Atlanta, georgia. Welcome to Never Been Promoted. Hello, I'm your host, thomas Helfrich, here in Atlanta, georgia.

Speaker 1: 1:49

Today we have an interview with somebody from I think they're from like London or England, or something's falling down and I think it's a song. I don't know. Does London Bridge actually fall down? I'm going to ask him this when he gets on. But anyway, david Roach, he is, you know, gray area thinking. He helps first-time CEOs. So if you are a first-time CEO, or maybe even a CEO who's just struggling, his coaching can help you be successful. He has a book called Becomes a Successful First-Time CEO and we'll talk about that.

Speaker 1: 2:23

The reason I think David's going to be a really important guest for what we're doing here at Never Been Promoted is our mission is to help you cut ties, that metaphoric things that hold you back and a lot of times, specifically when you're in a leadership role for the first time, and a very important one, and it's your. You know, you got all the pressure of running a company and being the executive. It's your dream job. You're trying to do this. You get this imposter syndrome. You get all these things, you make up shit, you just you don't know what you're doing Really. Your, your, your chances of failure are pretty high, I think it's. You know, two out of five maybe make it the first time or they don't fail. And but Dave will have all the metrics on that. But this is this will be a very important topic to learning what parts of being a leader you need to rethink how to re-engineer, re-position your thinking to to be a really good leader, so you can redefine how you're going to lead that company.

Speaker 1: 3:01

For it, I have one shameless plug. We have the Cut the Tie community starting. So if you can go to cutthetiecom, check it out. You can see a community where you go there to get help and give help to get your ties cut for things that are holding you back. So check that out. Enough shameless plugs, it's time to plug. Mr David Roche. No, it's David Roche. How are you David?

Speaker 2: 3:22

Hi Thomas, very well indeed, just recovering from recognizing the dad dancing from you in the intro.

Speaker 1: 3:28

I mean, that's just standard dancing for a guy who doesn't know how to dance, right, anybody who doesn't know how to dance does the slight overbite on the lip Right right, just kind of there's terms for that. I'm terrible at dancing, my wife excellent dancer, me no, if you've got one move.

Speaker 2: 3:45

this works. Just stick with it, it's fine.

Speaker 1: 3:48

Mine is to sit down and look at others dance. You like to watch it okay?

Speaker 2: 3:57

Where are you joining us from today? From a town called Kingston-upon-Thames, just outside southwest London, near Wimbledon, where the tennis is.

Speaker 1: 4:04

There you go. See, I was correct. By the way, did London Bridge actually fall down at some point?

Speaker 2: 4:09

No, I think it was bought by the Americans. Actually it's out in the desert somewhere, the original one. They thought they were buying Tower Bridge, I think, which is the more ornate one that's funny and they're like what is this crap?

Speaker 1: 4:21

It's that song that's funny and they're like what is this crap? London bridge is falling down, but no one tells me why it fell or if it actually did so maybe it's the price that's falling down. Oh, I gotcha when you got into this business. Right, You're a CEO coach. Let's do this first. Start with what it is you do today. Just give us like the tease and I don't know how you even get into something like this. So can you set this up for us? A little bit of where we are today and fly back.

Speaker 2: 4:52

Yeah, sure, I mean, I think, how you get into it.

Speaker 2: 4:55

Certainly, what I try and do is combine coaching and mentoring because I try and use the 30 years of scars and an experience that I picked up going along the way working as a board director, a CEO, a president, a chair of various different corporate companies, startups, not-for-profit boards and so on and so forth where you can bring in, on the mentoring side, the experience to try and avoid the mistakes but have the coaching skills to be able to provide an independent sounding board and also break down the limiting beliefs that people have, particularly when you're getting into that first time coaching. And I think that combination also helps people aspiring to become a first time CEO who have the ability to make their own luck and they're sort of sitting there waiting. I keep being overlooked. Actually, you have the ability to change things yourself. So it's trying to use all the experience I've had and all the times I've got it wrong to try and help other people. Shortcut that process and everyone's progress is going to be slightly rollercoaster, but avoiding some of the mistakes can avoid some of the dips.

Speaker 1: 6:17

What was your first CEO role?

Speaker 2: 6:20

First CEO role was a US company. Remember Borders Books. They had a European operation. They had 60 stores in the UK and they bought a chain called Books Etc as well to try and sort of be the launchpad, and I was CEO of their European operation and I've worked in publishing and in Waterstones, which is the biggest UK book chain, and so it was a natural fit. But it was really interesting as a first-time CEO to have your bosses based in Ann Arbor in Michigan, on a different time zone, but they had a format on how a border store was run which they wanted you to follow, but you also. Again, some of that's not going to work in the UK. You know retail is very difficult to transfer, particularly for Brits actually going out to the US, but some of that works the other way too. So it was an interesting challenge. But, like everyone else, you're full of imposter syndrome. As you mentioned, you're wearing an armor that makes you look as if you know all the answers, but underneath you're reaching out and going.

Speaker 1: 7:32

Ah, You're sweating profusely, going I don't know what. I'm doing, I'm curious From a retail standpoint Borders just any of the bookstores Barnes, noble. What works in? What works in the US that absolutely doesn't work in the UK?

Speaker 2: 7:47

That's a really good question. I think the over-the-top customer service is actually the most calling thing In America the can I help you or have a nice day and all that stuff is. In the uk everyone's much more laid back and, and particularly men. If someone approaches them in a shop and says can I help you or whatever you know, he said thanks. Basically I was just browsing, having enjoying myself, but now I'm going straight out that door. Uh, interaction, that's the last thing I was expecting I would have no idea, okay.

Speaker 1: 8:22

so it's kind of like I got this, I don't need help, just be polite when I do interact with you. But let me initiate the interaction.

Speaker 2: 8:29

Yeah, generally. Generally, I mean, obviously you do. What interaction does lead to sales. So so what I tried, what I tried to instill in the in, in our teams, in the stores, was don't say can I help you, Are you having a nice day, Whatever? Just go up and start a conversation, and the icebreaker was always what are you reading at the moment?

Speaker 2: 8:51

And that suddenly got into. Oh God, I'm reading this, I like crime thrillers, or I'm buying for a grandson or whatever the hell it was. It just started something going and then take it from there. That was the better way, in the UK anyway, I think actually that would work in the U S better Cause.

Speaker 1: 9:09

Then people would be, they'd feel understood, there'd be some empathy. Oh, totally understand, I have a grandson, or yeah, my friend just went through that too, if you need you know. At that point you're like, well, you got a great section on something. It also drives in command of knowledge, and what I'm getting at with with being with the ceo is you made a good point to recognize that's probably not going to work. How? I mean these, these uh, franchise type model us kind of companies? How? How was that rub with them? This, were they like do it anyway.

Speaker 2: 9:45

Yeah, I mean what they don't see, they don't know, was the sort of rule. And yeah, the look at the stores was pretty good. The biggest difference I think the best thing that we transferred was the casual friendliness to the punters coming in the door, because bookshops in the UK were often like the sort of libraries you see in 1950s movies, where it's shh and the children were don't touch any of the books. Whatever you do, you're like don't put that coffee down, whereas we're actually just sitting there going take, you know, there's a Starbucks in the store, take the coffee anywhere you want, touch everything, play with everything, and parents are going. My God, I can bring my children to a bookstore without being out and wrecking the place and the dwell time as a result was much, much longer than with other bookstores.

Speaker 1: 10:43

Not dwelling on your original piece, but my assumption is because I used to go to those bookstores just to find the information I needed kind of pre-Google right and just to find it, and then I would leave, but I'd almost always buy a coffee. I figured like that has to be the model. Is they just want you to buy a candy bar or a coffee?

Speaker 2: 10:59

I wasn't sure. I'm never sure whether it was a measure of success or whatever. Never sure whether it was a measure of success or or whatever, but often you find in the books beside, beside the coffee shop had bookmarks in them sometimes. So people obviously came there every day for lunch and went right. Okay, where was I?

Speaker 1: 11:14

that's awesome. Uh, so, moving past that, so that was your first role. Uh, interesting market, because it's. It's a. You know, it's hard to be in a shrinking market where, like, like that's it's not that it's gone away and it's not that it's ever going to go away, but it's the horse.

Speaker 2: 11:28

When the car came, yeah, I mean the book industry has been interesting because it's been around for hundreds of years. But if you think about the physical book, it wobbled a little bit when e-books came in, but actually it's sort of bounced back quite nicely in the last few years and they complement each other came in, but actually it's sort of bounced back quite nicely in the last few years. They complement each other. I think eBooks also don't really make gifts in a very friendly way giving someone a file or whatever. It's not the same as a book. Actually, production values have gone up and the physical book is now on most people's sort of Christmas list somewhere. So I think it's held up pretty well. And actually I used to work at HMV, which is the biggest chain of entertainment stores here, and certainly I've experienced the digitization of the music industry and the film industry as well and games, and I think the book industry is relatively done OK.

Speaker 1: 12:29

You are so from that. Right, that was your first one. Take me through the next few, because what I want to set up are kind of like your credentials of hey, you went through that, didn't work, went to this, didn't work, yeah, like, take me through the CEO journey.

Speaker 2: 12:42

I guess the journey. But just leading up to that appointment was always. I did psychology university, I did a professional qualification in hypnotherapy and it was relationships and why people think and it was always interesting to me. And then I ended up working in retail, which was in a company that was. We used to have a stamp which was actually literal, not just metaphorical, which had JFDI on. I don't know if everyone knows what JFDI stands for, but it was just effing do it. We were operationally excellent. Things were implemented immediately, but that was the culture of that company. Were implemented immediately, but that was the culture of that company.

Speaker 2: 13:27

And then, moving into Waterstones, the book chain, suddenly 95% of the staff have got university degrees and no one's doing anything unless you explain the rationale and they agree with it. And the JFDA stamp. No one would have just picked up sticks and walked out if you treated them that way. So, learning the cultures of the company, I worked in lots of different departments and I think the breakthrough bit was probably I was put in charge of a project which computerized the whole retail system, from finance to stock control, to store tills, to everything, and it was like a major, major project and it was critical for the future of the company. Suddenly we could run things centrally in a way that allowed us to expand really quickly, whereas before it took years of experience to put people in the stores, to understand how to run a store. And so it was a game changer. And this suddenly gave me access to all the board, all the departments, experience of all the parts, how it all fit together.

Speaker 2: 14:34

And, and to me the biggest interesting thing around that and I spent a lot of time talking with people is the different, that sort of journey up the up the greasy pole, where you are a specialist in a lot of cases but suddenly that specialism you know, often in engineering companies, in chemical companies, the best chemist, the best engineers, promoted and then suddenly is in management and they're going hang on, one, I'm no good. Two, I don't want to do this. I want to carry on with my research. But management can be trained. But I think no one talks about the other side, where you're a generalist and you're going I don't have any specialist skills, I'm a jack of all trades, master of none. But actually, as you go up, what you need to understand is being a generalist is in itself a specialist skill well, I mean, an effective manager is definitely a leader.

Speaker 2: 15:29

Yeah, certainly a skill, you know, at the top of the top of the tree you are, you are a conductor, you know, you've got it. You've got your, your all different parts on the stage around you, an orchestra conductor, and they've all got their own characteristics. You know the brass are totally different to the strings and whatever, but they all need to come together and you provide the score, the tempo, the passion, the vision, and actually you need to listen, you need to trust, you need to bring this together and actually the whole thing is about making the sum of the parts greater than the individuals and, interestingly for the CEO, they're the only one who actually doesn't contribute to the oral experience.

Speaker 1: 16:16

It's an interesting analogy. Keep the wrapper that keeps the package together, so to speak. So you have the experience. And along that journey, right, what would you tell your former self Like? What would you, right now, you'd say, all right, listen well, how would you talk? Differently about your, your role as a CEO or your?

Speaker 2: 16:33

yeah, I mean it's usually, it's obviously that accompanies the dips and and and there was a couple of times when I had I had was given a role after that project manager thing, a role on the board as product director, sort of head of buying and marketing on the board, and that was a real surprise to me and to everyone else. So you accept that and go OK, I'm a bit of an imposter syndrome but I'll manage this, it's great news. Okay, I've a bit of imposter syndrome but I'll manage this, it's great news. But then is the dips. When I was, uh, at one stage I was offered the first managing director role, um, and this was a sort of dinner behind the scenes with the um, with the chair, and and it was all going to be um confirmed in in two months time, after Christmas. We'd been through a couple of MDs that we brought in from outside. It hadn't worked and it was definitely going to be your turn, your time, and then, and so I kept my nose clean and I was told by sort of friends of the chair just don't put a foot wrong, it's all going to happen, it's all looking good.

Speaker 2: 17:43

And then I had a meeting in January. I thought it was, I thought this is it. It's going to be confirmed, and the guys I've changed my mind, they're not going to give it to you and some some strange operational reasons which were which were, I realized later irrelevant. And I'm sitting there going how unfair is this? And? And so this was the first point I really understood hang on that.

Speaker 2: 18:06

You've got to deal with the person in front of you, and that's going to be very different to how you deal. There's no rule book for this and for that particular person. What they had wanted to see, without asking me or telling me, was me to assume the role and actually fix things and take on that leadership role in advance, without any confirmation, whereas my advice I'd be given was do completely the opposite. And so I spend a lot of time talking to people who are aspiring to be CEOs about don't wait to be given the stripes before you assume the role. You can make your own luck. It's like waiting to be given the car keys to prove you can drive.

Speaker 1: 18:52

In that instance, though, you certainly have to play the person, because the other person might be like that's arrogant, he shouldn't have done that. And the next guy might be like how did he not step up? He was told Completely and utterly. It's like you're the board Completely and Completely.

Speaker 2: 19:05

And I think that whole transition piece is really key to everything. Mckinsey have a stat that they quote, which is that a trillion dollars of market cap is lost from Saturn and Paul's 1,500 companies on the basis of poorly managed transitions for CEOs and C-suite people. Every year, every year, raoul PAL every year.

Speaker 1: 19:30

Holy cow, you can quantify that it is McKinsey MARK.

Speaker 2: 19:35

BLYTH, MD, PhD. It's a big number anyway, it recognizes that the transition is really badly planned. I think when you go for the job, the key question everyone goes, oh, can you do the job is the key question, and I sort of disagree on that because when you get to the final shortlist, probably most people have the experience and talent to be able to do the job in some way, shape or form. I think the real question is can you be trusted to do the job?

Speaker 1: 20:01

Yeah, can you be the?

Speaker 2: 20:02

job. When you live there, particularly for the internal candidate, you have the chance to build that trust all the way through the time you're there. Do you show that you can take on stuff outside of your comfort zone and experience and do well at it? Do you show an interest in all the departments and how it all fits together? Do you show that you accept and welcome the tendencies for the stuff that you haven and welcome the tendencies, uh, for the stuff that you haven't had to do before, which is so? It's always this incredible shock. That's the first I've seen you go. Oh, my god, it's much more difficult than I thought it was going to be. Um, so, so that? So that can you be trusted? I think is critical. Um, but you know the.

Speaker 2: 20:45

I think once you've got the job, that transition piece, suddenly they spend all their time concentrating on right, who are we going to appoint? Right, great. And then suddenly it's right, here's the 100. Where's your 100-day plan? You're off and running at 100 miles an hour. You've got to tick, tick, tick, tick and actually it's building the relationships around you, with your senior leadership team, with the board above you, across the company, within the industry. It's all those relationships which actually are going to underpin whether you're going to be successful or not.

Speaker 2: 21:16

Yes, you might tick off a couple of things on your 100-day plan, but if you haven't got everyone on your side, the senior leadership team is going to have probably one or two people there going. I should have got the job, but they're giving you false signals. There's probably one or two people there going. I should have got the job, but they're giving you false signals. There's probably one person there who should have been jettisoned ages ago and they suddenly see this as a new opportunity, my final chance to save my career. So that'd be extra helpful, certainly on the surface.

Speaker 1: 21:43

And that role-playing job the person who greets you first is the most helpful is the one that ends up being the most and the worst person for you. I mean, without fail, that's been my career. The person was like kindest and like most helpful. Wants to take you to lunch.

Speaker 2: 21:56

The first day is the one that was most threatened and ends up yeah, they're at the end of the plank. They shouldn't have walked ages ago?

Speaker 1: 22:06

generally they, they buried. They've dug this six foot grave multiple times and no one ever pulled the trigger, right, yeah, absolutely so.

Speaker 2: 22:13

So, yeah, I so I think I think that transition piece is really really interesting and and and you know, you can make your own luck on the way out I think it's it's harder to um to instantly sort of like go right, this is my culture, this is the way I do things, particularly going upwards as well as going downwards at the same time. But you know, that's what a coach is there for, because you can make it worse for yourself If you wear an armour of impenetrability and sort of I know all the answers a mask that says it also says to everyone don't get in that person's way, they don't want any help, you know, don't question what they're doing. And so building those relationships are even more difficult because you're making it more difficult by having this false front that says I know everything. But the key to me and this is obviously where I got involved was this coaching and mentoring combination, where the independence is the key, because you need a safe space outside of the confessional of the board or whatever, to be able to say look, I really don't know how this works, or my boss is a total and utter, whatever it might be.

Speaker 2: 23:37

And actually, as a coach and mentor. You can sometimes just sit in there going so what are your conversations like? And you're acting like it's like you've got a us plug and a electrical plug and a uk socket and you and they can't talk to each other and you're like the connector in between that sits there and says when he's saying that probably what he wants is this, this, this. When she's saying that and it's often just a misinterpretation and it might just be you know you're not giving enough or you're giving too much, you're taking too much time or you're not decisive. You know the acting as translator is a big part of part of the job too do you think there's a space for?

Speaker 1: 24:15

uh, I always wanted this, why it's in this day and age now?

Speaker 1: 24:18

Uh, and this is a bigger company ceo kind of stuff, not like you're. You know, we can talk some solopreneur stuff in a minute, but if I was a new ceo in a company for my leadership team, given the fact that you have so much technology at your hands, I'd be like we're going to do some personality tests and really get anybody who can game it and get an understanding of all these people a little bit more and then leverage a little tech to be like who are these people and how do I need to interact with them. I think this would be a good use for a CEO in the first few days is to really leverage a coach to understand who the hell they are actually dealing with and how to interact with them, because, like you said, the style and the communication and the intentions and the motivations for each of those people it's incredibly complex and it's absolutely vital to your success or failure. Does that happen? Is anybody actually doing that? Where they're like they're putting together? Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:04

I think so. I mean, I think it does happen um a bit. You know, I have there's some very good, good tests, but there's some, some, some you know ones that are not so good and ones that have been tried and tested for for many years but actually they've probably done their time. You know, um, without dissing anything in particular, you know some of them are much more certainly with with my background in psychology. Some are more akin to astrology than necessarily science.

Speaker 1: 25:33

I was thinking like you have to go to Pisces.

Speaker 2: 25:34

Yeah, you're a Pisces, you'll be fine Stars man. So yeah, I think. But the problem is that there's so many other variables rather than just characteristics as well, and you do learn that and you give out the rope depending on not only experience, confidence, track record but actually how the people are feeling on the day. And if that's the span of their job, this bit over here they might be really fine at giving the rope, but that bit they need some help. So there's no, even within one individual there's different balances. But also the person you're talking to today can be totally different next week on the same subject. You know the boss who didn't give me the job. He was very much a I rule on fear of the sack. You know that's how I motivate the company and he would actually say that to everyone and I was certainly on the end of that more than once. But I saw a string of thought there.

Speaker 1: 26:39

Well, it was more of like when you get into the role right is the world changes and there's technology, and I was just curious. It's more of just like a tangent little.

Speaker 2: 26:47

Sorry, sorry, sorry, I know where I was now.

Speaker 1: 26:50

Who you are from a like from a, from a yeah but, but.

Speaker 2: 26:53

But here you are. As I say, changes because in this, in the, in the, in the fear, if you're in the fear of the sack mode, someone says in charge of sales or something, the sales figures are coming in, there's suddenly a dip in the sales. The answer is not always right. I'm just going to crack the whip harder and apply the bollocking until the sales come back up and you suddenly need to be able to have those conversations where you can get to the cause, which might be.

Speaker 2: 27:23

Last week you thought this and we agreed that. This week you want someone to be able to say actually, my dad was diagnosed with parkinson's last week. I'm, I'm now primary caregiver, blah, blah, blah and. And in our day you would never have brought that stuff up back in the day with the fear of the sack. You know this was a week that would be a weakness, and it's. But actually these days it's a very different relationship that you should have with your team and it's all about getting the best out of people as a team together, rather than cracking the whip to try and make sure that the tigers stay on their seats around the ring.

Speaker 1: 28:02

And this comes back to your first point about being an effective CEO is the transition, because that's still a transition problem. Right, you have old guard, new guard somewhere in between. We used to do it this way, we always do it this way and, like you know, a good leader recognizes the state of the art and the moment versus and who's there and who can and can't be there, um, which which always introduces a whole lot of things of like ageism and everything else. Right, and there's also also this young groups are like, hey, we still do things this way, but you don't want to work or whatever it is. Pivot the conversation a little bit too, because we have a lot of entrepreneurs, first-time CEOs in their own company, and they are truly figuring it out by themselves and they're adding a team member and then maybe they're doing their first hires. You want to give me like a list of cool advice of what you know the best CEOs on the planet. They all do X, y and Z.

Speaker 2: 28:51

So you should too. That's a really good question and I think I often wrestle with the difference between entrepreneurs particularly in startups and corporate, and certainly coaching and mentoring. I feel much I can coach in any field, in any industry, but mentoring I feel more comfortable in a corporate environment because those relationship things are probably more prevalent, whereas an entrepreneur has the relationship issues plus everything goes with trying to keep the show on the road and keep the cash flowing. The show on the road and keep the cash flowing.

Speaker 1: 29:28

It's a different dynamic, but as they build their teams and they become leaders, not being arrogant or a know-it-all is probably a bad ability, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 29:40

I think it's knowing your limits. I've chaired a couple of startups in my time and I've just taken on the last three months chair of a new startup and I'm really enjoying it. But boy, it's exciting, boy, it's scary, boy, it's all those things. As a founder, if you're in a startup, you're generally a founder on the basis of vision or tech skill or one thing or the other, and maybe two out of three or four, but rarely you're the complete package. And it's understanding when to let go. Also, when to say no is definitely one thing. When to pivot is probably the most important.

Speaker 2: 30:35

My vision was we were always going to do this. It was going to be a B2C thing and all the customers would love us. But hang on, suddenly, no, basically that hasn't worked. You're running out of cash, you can't develop it anymore, and then suddenly you get a breakthrough moment and I and I've I've actually seen, seen and delivered this um, where the babe element goes, yeah, what you, what you've got, is is interesting and our products for our products, but in a way that that is is a marketing tool, not you're. You're not going to be taking it to market. You're not going to be selling it to market. You're not going to be selling it, but I can see how you can help us target consumers in a way.

Speaker 2: 31:13

And suddenly you've got to tell the CEO's, got to the founder's, got to cope with my baby. I've just been told my baby's ugly and that my baby needs to have a big change. That is going to go away from the dream I had for them, and that's a very difficult thing. Plus, also, they tend to think I always understood who our consumer was, who our target market was, and so therefore, I actually now am an expert in that market, as opposed to surrounding myself with experts. And you see it all the time where suddenly the plan's going along, the plan's going along and the expertise is brought in, and suddenly the founder will go I've got a great idea, let's do this, this, this, and everyone's looking around the table, going really Sometimes it's genius, sometimes it's not, and it's understanding that. Okay, I'm one of those people who I come up with 10 ideas a day and nine of them are all bullshit, and I need to surround myself with people who tell me the nine are bullshit, the one may be brilliant, but I need help to filter the brilliant-.

Speaker 1: 32:27

I mean, with those odds that's pretty good. 10% of your stuff's pretty good. Let's probably say it's one out of 10,000. Because the entrepreneurial ADD of all the CEOs I've ever met is it's off the charts typically, and typically by the time you've heard it, they've narrowed it down to the top 100.

Speaker 2: 32:46

But coming back to the first CEO within this context is really interesting because one of the biggest problems is you've been running important departments or important companies or whatever, particularly corporate world, and suddenly you've gone to this job. You've probably got two bosses, 10 bosses on the board for the first time. But the real killer is you're. You'll see that all the problems you're brought to solve, all the questions that come to you, all the easy ones are done. All the nice ones they're done. Everyone makes those because they're great. You only get the shitty ones that are difficult, painful and give you the option to choose the least bad one. So everything you do has got some real angst and anger and central downside and unpopularity to it and suddenly you go. Is this the fun bit?

Speaker 1: 33:39

Is it? I've had this debate with you, so I'll throw this. We'll throw the turd on the table. See if anybody cleans it up here. Okay, the role of a CEO is to focus on revenue today and then revenue tomorrow. Anything else that doesn't align to that is just nonsense. What do you think about that statement? And is it too short? Or is that summarized the role of the CEO in its entirety?

Speaker 2: 34:09

I guess it depends on your definition of tomorrow, not today, not literally. Tomorrow presumably.

Speaker 1: 34:17

Well, tomorrow meaning the future, or whatever that is. And right now, how are we going to pay bills and how are we going?

Speaker 2: 34:24

to. But it's interesting when you look at politics everyone would say the problem is in every short-term, as in the UK it's five-year cycles. In the US you got two years of the four where you're productive, in the presidential race, whatever. And in business shareholders and funders it used to be that well, it probably still is the cliche of saying what's in the shareholder's interest, that's really the best thing, whether that's the way to run the company. What's in the shareholder's business interest is, as you say, revenue and bottom line and actually trying to second guess what's in the shareholders' interest can sometimes be distracting.

Speaker 2: 35:11

You know that might be right. We need to cut overhead and often you know if finance people are put in charge, cuts are always popular. You know growing is much more difficult, but is that necessarily the visionary way to do it, the inspirational way to do it and actually how you treat your people and how you build your people and selfishly, having an accession plan for yourself is really key to be able to move on. Revenue ultimately is there and if you don't move forward you're not standing still. So I haven't heard that one before, so I haven't given it any thought. But I guess revenues in everyone's interest. Again the first time CEO, suddenly they go hang on. I've got all these people I'm responsible for and their families and their livelihoods.

Speaker 1: 36:10

I don't think most CEOs think that way. I cause, because it would be like cause the cuts are the cuts and they get. People get are gone too easily for that kind of thing. Like maybe that you? I used to think people are like no, it's numbers, You're a number. I'm also a little more negative towards that just because I've been through that and other people have too.

Speaker 2: 36:27

But the CEO's role as a front man is a really interesting thing, and that's the same with founders and entrepreneurs, probably even more so, and arguably, it's much easier to get a following as an individual than it is as a brand. And if you look at brands, how many followers does a brand have versus the figurehead? You know, if you look at a Bezos versus Amazon or Musk and Tesla and so on and so forth, the individual is everything, and actually that means not only pride in working for a company, but also the ability to attract the best talent. You may not have the same revenue, but that's the person I want to work for.

Speaker 1: 37:13

Give me your flagship story of the CEO that you helped turn it around or become successful. I always call it your selling story. By the way, everyone, this is our precursor to the shameless plug for his book and services.

Speaker 2: 37:28

Hey, you've got to have shameless plug the I don't know People who got on to become pharma were successful as me and who I now try and tap up for investment when I join other companies. I think it's more moments where you start off with someone. There was one person I worked with. She was a first time CEO and she would say in one breath I'm crippled by fear. Every day I go to work and then 20 minutes later when you're saying, who's the best person you've ever worked for? And then she'd say, oh well, I haven't worked with anyone who I haven't overtaken within three months. And you sit there and go, god boy, and within half an hour you've got this sort of basket case of imposter syndrome to this incredible, all-conquering sort of confidence. And how do you take that person to becoming a more balanced person? Because actually you know, eight or nine out of 10 people leaders do have doubts about their abilities and experience. It's the one out of 10 who doesn't. That I'm more worried about.

Speaker 1: 38:44

Who makes a better CEO, a man or a woman?

Speaker 2: 38:48

Personally, I've enjoyed working for women more than I've enjoyed working for men. Working for men purely because it's the, the, the game they're playing is success for the company at revenue in whatever or whatever measure you choose, and and and that's what. What the subject is is you're talking about the majority of the time with men I've seen working for, for some big, bold characters, and you get that in in retail, the, the um, and certainly retail in the 90s or whatever, and early 2000s, there was a lot of ego, there was a lot of testosterone. There was a lot of other stuff getting in the way potentially of of making, uh, making the right collective decisions to, to, to the success of everyone.

Speaker 1: 39:36

Okay, loaded question who makes a better CEO a Republican or Democrat? Don't answer that, I'm just messing with you.

Speaker 2: 39:42

I wish I knew more about US politics.

Speaker 1: 39:46

We're messing with technology right now. When you, when did you write the book and what I mean? I'm I could I maybe guessed the inspiration on it, but you know what was the moment? Like I got to write a book about this, like do you have the book you want to show? It.

Speaker 2: 40:00

Yeah, it's called become a successful first time CEO. It's available on amazoncom and it's, it's. It's, it's mainly I probably put it as many anecdotes and true stories and whatever in it, because to me they um that that stories make you give you emotions and actually it's people remember how they feel, not not the bullet points on on page 38. So, uh, my, my, it's about, about relationships. There's no, not necessarily so many right wrongs or how to's.

Speaker 2: 40:36

My editor described it more as a why-to book rather than a how-to book and, as I say, lots of stories on how to get it wrong. Some are quite amusing and the best review I had was from a CEO who read it and said you know, most business books don't have the ability to become a genuine page turner, but this one does so I took that as a compliment. Don't don't have the uh ability to become a genuine page turner, but this one does, so I took that as a compliment. Uh, maybe it's. It means it's slightly flippant for, um, for the business community, who, people who devour business books? I'm not I'm not a a devotee of reading business books the whole time. I love reading fiction. I think you learn as much about those relationships and those characters and empathizing and diversity.

Speaker 1: 41:18

So some of those big business books are fiction? Yeah, that's for sure. They've never been on the show.

Speaker 2: 41:28

I mean, I originally became a coach actually to become a better nonic. When I moved, when I left corporate life, I became a consultant and then moved naturally from consultancy into non-exec, director and then chair roles. I did the coaching course then because I thought the, the, the ability to question, ask good questions to, to support, to challenge and so on and so forth we're the same for the non-exec and um and chair roles. As it is is within coaching, um, but then it was the, it was the melding, the mentoring. That was the key thing. Because I had I had a coach when I was the first.

Speaker 2: 42:05

I see you're incredibly helpful, but sometimes you're just going, oh, just tell me what to do, and you and you're busy people see it as a busy people. So so the coach's in there going no, no, no, you have to come get, you have to arrive at it yourself. What else could you do? You sit there, I've got five fucking minutes, sorry, I've got five minutes. You know, before the wall, wall comes down, you know what would you do. And the coach would sit there going no, no, but a coach with a mentor.

Speaker 2: 42:31

What I found and this is really interesting the, the. If, if a CEO was completely stuck, I would say OK, let me just tell you something that happened to me which has some similarities. And he started to tell you some story blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Within about 30, 40 seconds they would suddenly go stop. Something you just said clicked in my head and I could see a way forward in my own thing.

Speaker 2: 42:57

And and the first time it happens you go and you know there's, there's, there are sciences around changing the framework and so on, so forth, but it's, but to me it's. You know they're surrounded by these problems. We've been talking about them, they're surrounded by them, but you can't see the answer your own problems. In the same way you can see answers to other people's problems, but as soon as I I start saying, well, this is what happened to me, they switch into problem-solving mode because they're listening to you, and suddenly this lightning connection is made between them, suddenly being in problem-solving mode but still being surrounded by their own problems, and suddenly everything's much clearer. And that is every time that happens, and it happens all the time. It's no coincidence, it is like a magic moment. That is to me that the happiest thing, rather than necessarily seeing every time that happens, it's a breakthrough moment you know, you're, uh, you're doing the jesus technique.

Speaker 1: 43:44

You're just talking in parables and people go I get it. And so you just, should we just say jesus, david roach, I mean david well, let's just see if I can change this something more interesting. I don't think that was in your book. Okay, you heard David said he's definitely. Are you drinking gin? Is that gin? What is?

Speaker 2: 44:02

that, no, no, no, I've just converted this from water into wine. It's fine.

Speaker 1: 44:06

Uh-huh, it's a gin. You know the Brits love what it is. Gin's horrible, it's like it's like drinking in a pine cone. I don't get it anyway. Oh, I don't drink but I used to trust me. I've done plenty of it. But if alcohol chasted like gin, I would have never drank. Okay, let me pivot a question here. So in your, you're on this journey of uh, being a coach and or a mentor now, and I think I think mentor is in coach or kind of one in the same. Um, it depends on who's consuming right the piece.

Speaker 2: 44:37

Yeah, you dial it up and down.

Speaker 1: 44:40

Yeah, there's lead and then there's teach right Like, do this, stop doing that? Like corrections, that's coaching. And then what would you do here? Is mentoring right Based on situations, because you might not even know the answer, you just know how to get it out of them. Talk about your business. So other coaches that are out there listening and people who are learning to grow what was kind of hard about you making that transition to coach, mentor and what's been going on since?

Speaker 2: 45:03

I mean, to be honest, I still am chair of two companies. I chair London Book Fair, which is the biggest annual book fair in the world in the first half of the year, and I chair a startup and I act as. So I still do work over and above to keep my hand in, if you like, as well as the coaching, so I only have time to work with so very intensely with four or five new CEOs. So to me, I haven't had to just just do that, um, you know, to the exclusion of everything else, and I think that's been quite important for me because it's helped me um sort of understand the urgency and relevance, because I'm still experiencing it myself, um, so the I don't know the I think that I I'd like to answer you in a parable, if that's okay I mean, that's what jesus would do basically where the coaching and mentoring thing clicked with me.

Speaker 2: 46:08

I I love scuba diving. I've dived all over the world and I did a free dive. I'm probably too old for it, but I did a free diving course no, no tanks or whatever a few years ago and and I wanted to have a, a trainer, a teacher who had done you know, knew exactly what they were talking about. So I I didn't run out of air when I'm sort of right underwater and and and and breathe wrong or and potentially do myself a lot of damage or worse. So they needed to know their shit. But also on the first one, I realized, my God, you know, shoved in a pool, holds your breath. How long can you hold your breath? You go 30 seconds, 40 seconds, whatever it is, and they're sitting there, going, okay, and you're going. I can't do it for any longer. And they're going, it's amazing. And you're going, I can't do it for any longer. And they're going, it's amazing.

Speaker 2: 46:59

So a little bit of learning on the chemistry of oxygen, et cetera and the physics of how you breathe, plus the killer is knowing you've got these limiting beliefs and coaching you around them Within two hours. I'm holding my breath for three and a half minutes and you're sitting there going jeez, within hours I'm, I'm diving down to 25 meters and it's just like, and you've seen again, this is insane and so, and that that was when I was suddenly went my god, this coaching and mentoring combination is, is the absolute winner. You know, I, I genuinely think it can produce extraordinary things and, and certainly, if it just been the coaching about the limiting beliefs and everything else, that then I, I don't think, oh, my brain wouldn't have said I don't trust this person enough to be able to do it or don't trust myself, whereas the mentoring went. These people really know their shit as well.

Speaker 1: 47:51

They've been there, done it themselves and if they, you know, if you get a little too confident on that dive, you go brain dead, which is great, yeah, so just know that and then coachingly.

Speaker 2: 48:01

But if that happens, you don't have to worry about anything after that.

Speaker 1: 48:03

Yeah, you're over at that point. Um, just conscious of time. So how do you want people like, first of all, who, who's the ideal person, who should get a hold of you and where do you want them to go, do that?

Speaker 2: 48:13

yeah, I, I, I, md, phd, phd, mph. I would say and it's maybe slightly disappointing for your audience if they're pure entrepreneurs and at the beginning of their own journey as a startup person. I think I wouldn't count myself as a massively experienced over decades within the startup arena, but I think the principles are the same. I've certainly haven't had any problem changing and moving around different sectors. I think within larger corporates, it's people who run big departments at a C-level and are aspiring to be a first-time ceo or first-time ceos themselves. I think you know when we look at, when we. If I was to look at the the future and leave a legacy, um, I would say that every single first-time ceo should it should be compulsory that they're assigned an independent coach and mentor. Absolutely. I'm very passionately about this, because why wouldn't you? Even if you take look at it in its cheapest way and say it's an insurance policy against failure, you've got this person coming going, coming in going. I'm going to be found out. They're going to. They all want me to fail, mentality to, to suddenly hang. I'm getting all the support they could possibly give me to make this win because everyone wants it to succeed. Why wouldn't they? That mind shift is amazing. So I think anyone who has that doubt, who wants to know more about making their own luck and then how to manage that transition.

Speaker 2: 49:55

But the other thing for the future is and you see it all the time, coaching can be seen as a sign of weakness. I need a coach, I'm a first-time CEO and everyone goes really, oh, we thought we had hired someone who had all the answers. It's not really how it works. And actually, the most experienced people if you look at sports people, greatest of all time at what they do the Tiger Woods, the Djokovic, federer choose your name. They understand that having and it may not even be a coach, it may be the mentor, someone who offers them independent, unconditional personal support to make them as the best they can possibly be. They all have it. You know, there's never one sense of going. I know it all, I've seen it all and actually I've got it in here so sorted that I don't need any help. That's right. So you see the best and most experienced CEOs with their own coaches and mentors. And it's a debate, it's a discussion and that's the thing about coaching.

Speaker 1: 50:58

You've got to learn to um, and the mentoring helps to be equals no, you've got to have that credibility to be equals you know, uh, the reason I have the community of cut the tie, the mastermind and stuff, is because you need that. You know, our idea is pay it now so you get an hour. Someone's time you give an hour. The reason is because you need someone to. You know, our idea is pay it now, so you get an hour. Someone's time you give an hour. The reason is because you need someone to say that's not how it works. I'm not trying to sell anything, just this is what you do, period. And the reason is because that helps people get, you know, surround themselves with people who don't have a vested interest in them failing or succeeding, just giving them knowledge and direction as a starting point.

Speaker 1: 51:32

And I think coaching is. I mean, I've never had a coach. I've met very few people I probably would hire, and the times I could hire them I couldn't afford them. So there's that. But just conscious of time, I want to thank you for coming on. I think you have a wealth of knowledge and you have many, many leather-bound books behind you. So anybody who has that many books probably read at least 12 of them, and that's more than most. David, thank you for coming on today. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 51:57

Absolutely a pleasure. I really enjoyed the conversation.

Speaker 1: 52:01

You'd be a very fun person to get a drink with. I can tell that it's getting a little later in the day, so he's already hit the gin bottle. It was water, but get a hold of him at grayareacoachingcom. David, I'm going to put you in the periwinkle room here and I'll be right back, but thank you yeah, N-B-G-R-E-Y for Americans, not G-R-A-Y. We'll put it on G-R-E-Y. You should probably buy the.

Speaker 1: 52:25

G-R-A-Y it's a very good point. The first test I can work with David is can you spell gray? All right, I'll be right back. Thank you so much for joining me today. If this was your first time listening and being here, I really appreciate you getting to this point. And if you've been here before, thank you for coming back. You know we're on the mission to help entrepreneurs get better entrepreneurship and in doing so, you'll get better at life. You know, get coaches, find support, get groups, join communities whatever it takes to be successful and to be better at what you do and better at life. Uh, that's what we're all about and I I appreciate you listening and getting this point, but until we meet again uh, thanks for listening to the never been promoted, thank you.