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Welcome to the never been promoted podcast, where we're all about helping you cut the tie to all that holds you back. The excuses, the fears, the people, that sense of entitlement. Cut the ties so you can unleash your inner entrepreneur. Your host, Thomas Helfrich, is on a mission to make more entrepreneurs in the world and make them better at entrepreneurship.
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Welcome to Never Been Promoted. Here we're, we're gonna talk about restoring trust in marketing. God knows we need it because there is so much noise. There's a lot of noise. There's a lot of noise because of the because of AI, because of this idea of instant gratification. The confusion between the words AI and automation are another big problem with marketing and also just this expectation of results because because we are living in this world of now, now, now, and we have all these tools. Why why can't I get leads faster? Why isn't my stuff working? So some of the same fundamental problems, unveil themselves. And today, we're gonna be joined by Christos Makridis. He is, he's a super brilliant guy that knows the space from academia, from real world building companies. So we're gonna get in the weeds with his journey a little bit and, also, with the topic of how you restore trust in marketing. Now I only ask very few things. One, if this is your first time here, I appreciate being here. And And if you've been here before and you like it, subscribe to the YouTube channel, hit the notifications, youtube.com@neverbeenpromoted. And I never talk about this much, but I've never been promoted. That's why I called it that. I probably could have called it ask to leave except that's happened as well. Anyway, different topic. We'll take it offline. And if you're listening to the podcast, thanks for listening. Please take a minute just to do a nice solid review. 5 stars is preferred, of course. But if you can, it helps get the mission out there to help us unleash your entrepreneur, help you cut the tie to all the crap holding you back in your life. People, fears, excuses, senses of entitlement. Let it all go. It's the only way you're gonna be successful in life and in particular entrepreneurship. So thank you for listening. Let's go ahead and bring on mister Christos. How are you, man?
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Hey, Tom. Great to be with you.
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It's it's great to be here. You and I have talked several times off camera, and I'm so happy you're you're finally on the show after, god, months of of of trying to get it booked. So I appreciate it. You're one of the first day of us being in the top 10% global, podcast globally here. So a small a small brag from my team that doesn't happen without them, and it certainly doesn't happen without any of the guests. So I appreciate you, your timing, you know, it's everything. Right? You you Yeah. No. Huge congratulations.
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That's, very topical for today is how you're able to kind of stay above all the noise that's out there. So congratulations. That's a really good achievement.
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I appreciate that. You know what? And one of the things and we're gonna talk about restoring that, trust in marketing. You know, the more authentic you can be, just from a top top line, you can take away you know, I don't want you to hang up now or stop listening, but the truth is the more authentic you can be and on point to what you know you can do and the problem specifically you know you solve, your marketing is almost always going to work. Just just start start with that. Now this is where AI kinda loses a little bit because it gets a little fluffy, and this is where people get too thin. But before we dive into that, because there's so many topics with us between tech and how tos and process, can you take just a few moments to just give us your background, set your creds up so people wanna listen to you, know why they should listen to you, and let's go from there.
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Yeah. Well, I grew up in Arizona, and I never really intended to take that journey into research and technical work, but, I ended up doing 2 doctorates, 1 in economics, 1 in engineering, both in Stanford. And during that time, I really developed a love for, research and for how you can pull data together from different sources and, do a lot with it. And so I kind of view it as a form of artistry because you get to pull all that together, tell a story, and create something that's ultimately valuable or hopefully valuable. That's one of the biggest challenges in in research is that so many times people pursue something that maybe interest them, but isn't actually moving the dial on anything in in the real world. And so one one of the things that I really try to set myself, up with with every paper is, does the answer to this actually change anything in the world? If people knew the answer to this, would their lives be different? And just today, actually, this is a sneak peek. I I just released a paper on, the effects of central bank digital currencies. So, speaking of things that are highly topical and relevant that we wanna know the answers to are what are the effects of CBDCs. But, anyways, long story short is, I spent all this time doing research, and I continue to do this. I I'm a professor. I teach classes, and I produce a lot of, academic research. But at an early, at an early point, I realized that it's not enough just to write a paper. It's not enough just to publish something in an academic journal and then kinda call it a day. I really had a passion for communication because if if no one knows the answer and people don't understand the answer, then what use really is it? And so by pursuing just more general writing, like, writing in an op ed in the hill or in Forbes or Newsweek or whatever it might be, I started out early on and it sort of snowballed where I just got into a rhythm where every paper that I worked on, I wrote a more accessible version of it in 700 words or less. And so what I hope to share today is a little bit about that journey. The class that I am launching called brand backbone and how I'm trying to distill a lot of those insights into something that's more digestible. So, that's a little bit about me, and, I'm excited for a conversation.
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Yeah. Absolutely. So it's hard to go from an academic type paper that's expected to be very lengthy. And it for maybe for actually, I'd love your take on that. So so you get a lot of people from academia who I've seen them at 10th marketing. I'll say it that way. And it doesn't go well because they've been conditioned that more is more and more is way better. And if without it, you get nowhere. But I've read a couple abstracts of things I'm interested in, and I'm like, this is already too wordy. You could have done this in, like, a single infographic and, like, a headline. So so help me okay. So that's the extreme case. So for entrepreneurs out there who tend to be more wordy or think they have to say every detail possible or they don't use white space correctly on your on your copy or page, listen up, because we're gonna go from the guy who knows how to do a 25,000 page dissertation on something he could have done in one image. Why that tell me about that shift and help somebody who because you've done it. How do you help somebody who's 23
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go to less? Let's just start with that. Yeah. So first, I wanna affirm that this is a big challenge that academia faces of just being overly worthy of not being, that that, clear in the communication and so on. And then what I wanna move towards is why does understanding this process actually matter for entrepreneurs, for people in marketing, and so on? Because I think that there's gonna be a a kind of healthy combination of the technical writing plus the more accessible writing. So I wanna get to that. But what I what I wanna start off with just kind of answering your question is that, there is there is such a dogma around trying to sound really smart. And I believe, like, every paper needs to have a one sentence summary of what it's saying and why it matters. And if it can't be distilled into 1 to 2 sentences, the individual that's conducting that research probably hasn't thought hard enough about the research question to be able to express it as such. And so many papers, have the veneer of something that is impactful, fancy, etcetera. But once you start uncovering it, you realize it's actually quite hollow. And, unfortunately, generative AI has only exacerbated that where you read something where all the words are sophisticated. It sounds nice, but it's it's empty. It leaves you wanting. And so this comes back to your point about authenticity, at the beginning. So, another another note here is that it's important for entrepreneurs to not not to buy into this hypothesis of, like, writing doesn't matter. All that matters is just, like, pure accessibility. This access is one critical ingredient, but technical expertise and actually having subject matter expertise also matters. Because you can't build a product without the proper engineering, digital, etcetera foundation. And so part of what I'm trying to build up sort of a movement around is that it's not either or. It's not like you become, like, an academic and you're, like, inaccessible, or you become, like, a popular press writer and you're accessible. The 2 can be married together to produce content that's actually useful to people. So I let me let me just pause there because I think, ultimately, it's about creating something that's useful to people and to society.
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Right. It's it's about okay. So one of the reasons I think marketing needs trust is is what you're describing, and and I'm not trying to I I wanna keep it on point because I think having the right level of content or the right format of image or video or what you're talking about is one of the major problems of trust in marketing is just it creates noise. And when you have 2 so many people talking about what great things are, how to do things, and it's not the right length, it's not the right hitting the right audience, it's not really speaking to anything, then it just then then then the trust in marketing goes down because you just kinda like, I'm just gonna I don't I I I'm confused now. I'm tired. I got fatigue from marketing. I and and and what happened that's one of the the core problems is is not is, a, not knowing your space well enough and knowing how to apply that that messaging to it. So I wanna have that. Can you bring in then some you talk about the good products or, obviously, a good product, which could be a service too. Let's just call it a product. It still needs the idea that, like, it has to solve something. It has to have a certain purpose and a problem it it solves. Not many problems, but, like, a core set of core problem with features that underlie other problems. When it pertains to marketing, though, how do you make like, how would you say like, how are you using maybe technology, like an AI or something to help in that step? Because the people who make products or services well don't typically make marketing well. People who do marketing well, they don't usually do. So help some help me understand or help the audience understand to restore that trust in marketing,
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what technologies can you leverage and how do you best leverage them? Yeah. Well, one thing I wanted to pick up on is just when you were talking about how often we get bombarded with useless information. And so many organizations undertake these campaigns, and they spend 1,000,000 of dollars on that end up not only being, like, not, like, neutral, they're they're negative because people are getting more annoyed by the ads that they're seeing, and it's just kinda contributing to this overall decline in trust. And so I think a lot of times, organizations and entrepreneurs, we just need to think introspectively about, do I actually have something useful to say? And if I don't feel conviction about bringing a solution to light, then I should not be an advocate. I I shouldn't be pushing it, and I shouldn't be wasting money and time on it. Now oh, please go ahead. Let me let me peel that onion in a second, and let me tell you why that happens.
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And listen up because because this I'm guilty of it, but it's something I've realized. Less is still more. You are told to post a day at least once a day, 3 times a day. And the people driving that message are the social media platforms themselves because they want engagement. And quite honestly, they don't care if your content is good enough because they know you'll consume other people's. So keep in mind, you are somewhat in the wheel and story, and it's very obvious to me that that is only there, the benefit of the platform, to keep you on their platform, to suck the air out of the room. So while you're there, enjoy the content you like. But when you're gonna contribute to it, make sure it's good stuff.
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Yeah. Well, I mean and, actually, no. Again, not to go on a detour, but this is such an important point because the way that social media works right now I mean, there's there's been such an investigation into the way that these web 2 companies have been operating that there is actual r and d spent on how do you make the platform more addictive, how do you get people on the platform for longer periods of time? Because that's the revenue model. It's that the longer that you're on the platform, the more likely you are to click on an ad, and ad is what generates the revenue. And so part of the reason why this this problem has just become bigger and bigger is because there's no b to c market for data. There's a p to b market for data where advertisers are able to sell ads and the platforms make money that way. But in terms of you as a user, as a consumer, you're never remunerated for the data that you're functionally seeing over. And so that's a big that's that that's something that personally interests me from a research side and I have been doing research on, but this is yeah. So I I I'd say organizations shouldn't contribute to noise. Now you might have something useful to say. You should totally say it, but just don't don't just get beyond that hamster wheel just for the sake of it. Now, Tom, you had asked a question as well about, like, how do you actually use technology to amplify message and and make it higher quality? So, I'd say that the bulk of the answer is not technological that again, it comes down to having a product or service that's actually creating value and then figuring out how do you experiment to tell that story. What I mean by that is how do you build up a collage of evidence that documents the effects that it's having and the the potential beneficial stories that it's having? And part of the message that I try to communicate in brand backbone is that organizations need to focus on putting out content that is helpful to their their clients and their stakeholders. Answer the questions that people are already asking themselves. Now technology fits into that because maybe you produce a white paper and a a a a paper that gets published, and then you're thinking, how do I repurpose that content for social media? How do I repurpose it across x, Instagram, and LinkedIn? And you might use a large language model to take what you've already specifically designed, but you're not using the language model to create raw content. And that's the biggest caution that I would encourage everybody is that people can tell when something is is empty and and hollow, and it ends up falling flat. So organizations need to prioritize in building, raw content that's unique, useful, and pressure tested. I it's it's reliable with sound methodology behind it. And then then you can figure out how to repurpose that across platforms and, modalities,
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audio, video. Yeah. So so let me let me give you an idea, though. It doesn't mean so everyone in the industry you're in might know the top ten things that everybody knows. What what are fill in the blank, whatever it is. If you don't have it, though, on your site or on your profile, they don't know you know it. So you do need some basic somewhat regurgitation, if you will, of commonly unknown facts to be associated with your brand to establish you know the now you can give your your twist on it and whatever else and do some original thought on that. But, no, you still have to do some of the basic block building to say, oh, I'm gonna get the foundations. Now a lot of people miss this, and they go to some kind of super high level thing. And to me, it falls black. So I'm like, I'm not sure I trust your opinion on it, because I haven't seen the basics, the foundational stones that that this person kind of gets where it came from, where it's going. They have they they're they're just kind of throwing an opinion out there. And the question is did did they did they really write it? Right? And so to know that you do need to establish to to your brand and this is why I think being around a problem is so important, because it's hard to be, you know, you you and by the way, you're brilliant. I know that. I've talked to you enough times. Like, I know you know lots of stuff at a layer deeper than anybody just by your level intelligence. I I I know you can I know you can do that? I know you do that. And it's a plague because you're the you're the the the guy in a in a in a you know, I'm I have the problem. I'm not your intelligence, but I have the guy I'm the guy that has to watch me in the one upper at the party. You have a perspective on things because you've read a couple articles because you're more you read more often, because you do that and you can process data. You have an opinion and and data to back it up because you you've taken that extra step because you're just good at it. Well, it makes you look like a one upper. So I got it too. The point is when your social media profile or your site has that feel that you know lots of things and lots of stuff, that kills you for solving the one problem you're trying to make money on. So be aware of that. I'll get off my pedestal here.
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No. I mean, no. Totally. Like, you know, you know, that's that's the key. It's like, who are you serving? The customer is the one that matters. You're not there to be on, like, some ivory tower or blah blah blah. You're there to help somebody solve their problem.
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Yeah. Yeah. No. So I I mean, to jump in there on you on that because that's sometimes I know people find the value by communicating their knowledge, and I'm like, wow. That's a smart person. And and and and to sell something and build a business is what marketing trying you know, that's what we're talking. We have to make money to have to affect change. You have to make money to grow a company or whatever else. So you don't think you do, you're wrong. You do. And so but the point being is, if you drive value from being smart, know that that's awesome, but do it in the context of solving a problem for somebody. Because otherwise, that you may be amazing, you may be interesting, they may know and they may like and they may trust you, but you won't be relevant and they won't buy from you. So you have to have the idea of relevance, which is tightening around a problem. So that being said,
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dive into how to enable this at scale because because, like, you're a small how how do you do this at scale then? How do you build trust back in your own marketing for somebody? Yeah. Yeah. Well well well, let me let me share a small story actually because it it dovetails with what you what, I mean, you just shared about is that what kinda brought me into this this, like, I mean, even doing this class called brand backbone was that, having written up, a number of media stories, I have just gotten, like, so many, what you know, like, those random emails from PR agencies saying, like, hey. Here's our CEO. Would you like to talk to this person and, do a story on them? And so when I when I got, like, top, like, lots of those emails, like, it'll be, like, every day, I'll probably get at least, like, 1 or 2. It it made me kind of, like, think a little bit deeper about, like, okay. What are PR agencies really doing? Now there's good PR agencies out there, but there's a lot that are absolute, just just kind of, wasting their clients' money. And so when when you kinda asked around, every entrepreneur, every organization needs to have something very clear that they're solving, and they need to have a story behind what prompted you to actually launch a company to do this. For me, it was like literally having spent time writing research, but then also communicating, and then finding that PR agencies are almost, like, sending these, like, random emails to me thinking that, like, I'm a reporter that just wants to cover their story, and and just, like, they there's no personalization. That made me think, okay. Like, let me let me learn more about this sector, about marketing, and about the way the PR agencies operate. And I realized, like, this is like a total, like, zoo. PR agencies will all I again, I don't wanna, like, bash on all agencies because there are professionals that do good work. But a lot of agencies go on muckraker.com. They get a bunch of emails, and then they just send, like, 10,000 emails out. And they call that, like, PR. But, no, true PR is about, I mean, connecting with your audience and understanding, like, what are they looking to achieve. So, anyways, I didn't mean to go on too long on this side, but I wouldn't
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caught on to a problem. Like, is it and what happens what you just described let me let me maybe dive into that a little bit. And this is what happens to anybody in their email. You have a problem or something you think you can solve through what PR provides or your perception of what PR provides. And then you get emails and you feel are very relevant because you're you're you're recency bias of that idea or or, you know, it's your it's it's your in that moment and you're like, oh, yeah. That's exactly how how they know. They must really know me. That's it's kinda like when you wanna buy a white minivan. All of a sudden, you see white minivans. And and so that's the same effect that happens in email when you're getting spam, spam, spam. And after a while, you see that you know, and where I know you're smart, and this is where people you guys have to take this extra step is when you really want something or you feel you have a problem, take a pause back because you're going to see the white minivan everywhere. Because you're gonna say, okay, are this, are these set of messages, is this marketing come everything's marketing come to you, is actually real and can it really help? Yeah. And I'll give you my personal example. So, I have a book coming out. I'm looking at, you know, now for 6, 9 months from now. Hey. Should I go on TV? Should I go, you know, buy some spots on a TV show in the morning? And and I'm getting so hard by all these PR agencies. Yo. We'll get you on this in Tampa. And and I'm like, oh, that's great. Like, it's affordable. Like, maybe we could do it with a great user each. But I'm I asked the one question each. I was like, but is my audience watching TV at 8 AM? And and they they're like, oh, great question. I'm like, no. They're not. Grandmas are and unemployed people. Okay? And entrepreneurs sure as hell aren't because they don't watch TV. They don't. They watch maybe Netflix. They may watch the the entrepreneurial, you know, reality show I was just on called The Blocks. See what I did there? I plugged that. It was great. Yeah. There you go. So so but they they may watch that, but they're not watching the to the the Today Show. Unless I do some stupid become a meme, they're not gonna see it. And my point is you have to ask the extra question of, okay, that's cool. There is that a vanity player or is it real? Yeah. And as soon as they started pushing back, you know what's happened? Crickets.
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Because they don't have to answer their questions.
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Followed up. Because I'm like, I've cracked the problem right there. And and what? Not one has said, you know, you're right. Actually, maybe we'll get you on stage at this keynote instead. They don't do any work. They're looking for the mass sale,
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and you gotta be able to do that motion. So I'll be quiet. I you had a point to add. No. I mean yeah. I mean, well, thanks for sharing that because that reaffirms, like, this is the problem is that PR agencies add almost no value. Most of them add no value. Like, the experience that you just described, at best, they're booking agents. Booking agents don't have the right unless they're, like, booking you at, like, the at, like, largest stadium in the world. Like, they don't have a right to charge the fees that they're charging and to be so inept. Like, most of the account managers just they're they're fresh out of college. Yeah.
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I I wanna I wanna bring them. There there are p agencies that do matter. So so for example Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I don't want it. They they produce well, they produce TV shows. They they can get you on things that people watch that are entrepreneurs. And it's not like, that's not a $10,000,000 audience. That might be 400,000 people who care. Because, I mean, cost audience that you're asking. Exactly. But that's who I went with. I met somebody, and then we we bartered our way, and and I'm getting on shows for nothing now. Right? And the point being is I took the step back because I understand the white minivan phenomenon of when, marketing is no. We're we're beating up PRs. This has to, by the way, goes with this is why my company verifies agencies because I think about 5 to 10% really do well globally. Maybe. I'll say 5% maybe do really well. And you have to find that agency. Now here's the thing. They're gonna charge you more, and a good marketing agency will actually not take you on if they don't think it'll actually serve you because they don't wanna risk their reputation. When someone's taking you on and you're like, how do they really they are there to take your money and not actually care. So that is an indicator of if someone's like, I'm not really sure we're a right pick.
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You have probably the right agency if they really mean that because they do not wanna risk their reputation for taking on a a customer they can't serve. So I maybe I've I've ran into this, but I don't know about you on this as well. No. I mean, I I think you you hit it spot on. It's sort of like, a courtship where both sides need to feel really comfortable because you're going to bat for each other. It's just as much a risk for them as it is for you. And so, yeah, it needs to be it you need to have those those frank, conversations around. Can can you actually support this and and vice versa? Yeah. No. I mean, the the last point that I wanted to to to kinda end end that conversation on is that, the question isn't, is there a future of PR? Of course, there's a future of communication. Communication has always existed. It always will exist. The question is about the mechanism, and it's about the structural change that's happened in the sector. There are a lot of agencies that are still hanging onto what worked 20, 30 years ago where they would take out ads in a newspaper, and they would send lots of emails or in that case, I mean, they would be calling people. And so the the landscape is shifting. And especially in an era with, like, an enormous amount of noise, the landscape is shifting, and so your ability to cut through that noise with actual content that matters and that is pressure tested, that's authentic, etcetera, is going to be one of the defining characteristics. And part of the reason that I mean, we're even that I I am I'm grateful to to you in this this podcast. It's like I was like, this this seems like a serious podcast. I'm not just trying to I mean, just like the advice that we're all giving everybody. He grills me, guys. Listen. Listen. Listen. If you're listening, he grilled me for months. He's like, alright. Show me your data. Do what you do. Who are you? Take your shirt off. Let me see your back. I'm like, that's weird. I'm just Yeah. Not not not that last part. He's not drilling me. Yeah.
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But let let me get into what you do a little bit more. So I know we're talking about this, but I wanna, you know, further establish your creds in this place. Because you work around a lot around the data and and a lot around the academia side of marketing, because you have some touches and draws into real life. Talk about a little more about what what you do and how people leverage, you know, what it is you do for the world to help these entrepreneurs make better decisions, retrust the the the path. Because I wanna make sure your credits are firmly I'm I'm let me just say this one more time. I have talked to you, to Christos a few times off camera, and I feel like I've skipped over the part where they need to buy into your credentials more because I already know them. I want you to dive into that a little bit more because it's really important for you to be able to stay here and say, this is important because so I'll be quiet. You get full screen. Do do your thing to really dive into what you're doing for people.
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Well, it's it's I feel like I'm a little hard to talk too much. Bad host. Yeah. Yeah. Part part of my spiel is that, that that the, kind of the yeah. I have 3 institutions are, sometimes overhyped, so I don't want to to to dwell too much on the credentials. But, yeah, I mean, I I have 7 degrees, 2 doctorates, 2 masters, from Stanford, and then I produced about 80 peer review papers. And I'm very passionate about research. I view research as an expression of creativity just like an artist that paints or, singer that that sings. It's a way for us to be able to take ideas, test them, and then communicate them to the broader world. So a lot of my research has been around determinants of human flourishing. A lot of my research has been around labor markets. How do you make labor markets more competitive? I do a lot of work on emerging technologies ranging from blockchain to AI, like the effects of AI on the labor market. How does it affect cities? How it affects different types of jobs? All of that research leverages detailed microdata. So I either use individual level data or firm level data. Sometimes I bring in county level data. I use cross country data, so it's not just all United States. Usually, it's longitudinal, so I'm observing the same individual, the same firm, the same county over a period of time and able to trace out the evolution of response, whether it be employment, wages, or so be it. And so to that end, I am highly engaged on research. I also am a professor. I have academic appointments out of several universities. I'm an associate professor out of Arizona State. I have an appointment out of Stanford's Human Centered AI Institute, visiting faculty at University of Naples in Cyprus where I helped them build out their, economics of blockchain curriculum, also, in in, in the in the complexity of science hub, and Baylor's Institute of Studies. So there's a big part of my heart that is around, higher education, being a force for good within higher education. But and this is as well kind of, close the the the loop on is that, I wanna take all that expertise, and I have been taking that expertise and thinking, how do we translate that to things that actually make life better for people and for organizations? And so with the brand backbone class, it was all about how do you actually produce scientific content? And how do you produce scientific content that's actually digestible? Because the methodology might actually be complicated, but the high level insights might be really straightforward. So, I mean, you might have a result where a certain campaign led to a certain uptick in sales that had a persistent effect. So it wasn't just a one time blip, and then you were also able to demonstrate the improvement in customer well-being and satisfaction because you're track tracking the same, individual's purchases over time. Wrapping that up in a study and being able to share that to the world, that's that's useful. And being and then lastly, being able to offer insights that are not only about you as an organization, but is applicable to your sector, to your field as a whole. Hey. Other people are gonna start citing that, and that establishes the organization as a thought leader. A true thought leader, not just somebody that, like, publishes a story in Forbes and says, oh, look at my article and then press. I mean, it's a lot more than just having an outlet that you're published in. It's about having something that actually is going to be listened to, and people will keep clicking on the hour after it gets uploaded to the Internet.
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That's right. So so the to kind of frame this right, Chris was has incredible background, and he could have gone a lot of ways with, with with his company, but he you specifically focus on technical writing. And and so you take this restoring trust, and there's a 1,000,000 places you can do it. And yours is and I was trying to set up that whole piece with you have a lot of data, a lot of experience. There's a lot of problems. The one problem you're trying to solve, which I absolutely love about your brand, is it's about technical writing. It's a class. I I I I'm pretty sure, actually, they can work with you 1 on 1 as well. But the point is they they they can work with you in this class in this kind of effort to focus. And this would be really good for SaaS companies or somebody with a more technical focus service line or something else of how to do this leveraging a whole bunch of data in a way that'll be very meaningful very quickly because that's a that's the big step. Yeah. And I so I think if I'm thinking about who should get a hold of you and things like that, and this is like the shameless plug spot I always try to do around this time, is it's somebody who's really struggling describing their product or service in a technical way because there's just too much data and you don't know what's noise versus benefit versus what the customer actually needs to hear. This is who this is for, a 100%.
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Is that a short way of doing that? Yeah. No. That that's exactly right. And I also say for individuals that don't want to actually do the technical analysis themselves, I'd still say part of it is knowing what questions to ask. Because what you don't wanna do do have happen is be manipulated by a consultancy that comes in saying, this is a 600 k project. And, really, I mean, it's like a 50 k project that would take 10 hours by somebody that's half confident. So by having the right questions and knowing the workflow, then you're able to manage another team that might be technical properly. So Right. I'm kind of anyone that's in marketing, anyone that's just trying to figure out how to tell stories more effectively.
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Yeah. And so in your course. Right? I mean, obviously, you you like, I know this, you know, you never have to worry about people copying stuff, honestly. You don't have to worry about people like, there's nothing you could describe everything in detail, and it wouldn't be enough. You'd still have to take the course. So I say this because I always ask people to give me the top three things, and if if you're if you're gonna completely not buy the course, go do that. At least do these three things when you're doing technical writing. What what are the top three things you need to accomplish or know about yourself?
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So so number 1 is produce evergreen content. So many times, we feel the necessity to be relevant and to weigh into something that's currently happening. But producing evergreen content around the questions that your clients, your stakeholders are already asking is going to be something that establishes your brand over the long run and medium run. Number 2 is that when you're producing technical analysis, think about the underlying data that you need in order to tell that story and and come in with an open mind. So you come in with a hypothesis and you try to figure out, okay. To answer this hypothesis, is it better to do a focus group with 15 people, or is it better to launch a new survey? And then number 3 is that whenever you're presenting new technical analysis, you need to understand what differentiates yours from what's come before. Because you don't always need to do completely primary, like, new research. You don't need to launch a new survey, do a new focus group. That's oftentimes required, but sometimes you might actually just be able to learn a lot by synthesizing what's out there. And by going through that exercise, then you realize, hey. There's a gap. We can fill it here and produce some actionable insights. So those are some some high level takeaways. Behind that, there's a lot more that I I won't get into right now unless you wanna take the conversation another direction, Tom, around, like, actual technical workflow. But, at a high level, those are
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those. Well, I mean, it and I think that what you just described, the next step is a nuance, and that's why you you take the course because Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Other one, there's a there's a methodology, but it would be out of context unless you know how to apply your nuance to it. Because because no one I mean, I'm down for, an even a metric conversation as well, but, yeah. No. That would yeah. It has to be I don't give away the house here. People gotta come pay you for that. I mean, come on. That I think we leave it in the top 3 or No. I mean, you said it well. It's like even even if we were to completely
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explain, the way that this worked, I mean, the reality is that there's so much task and information. And, I mean, until people actually go through on an example of their own I mean, that's always the way that I learned is just, like, through examples. So, you know, it's funny. So, like, I I was,
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recently on the The Block season 8 18, and that's a it's a reality show for entrepreneurship. You learn for a 2 hour window, and then you have, like, 15 minutes to write a 3 minute presentation pitch. So you have to you're you're sitting there intensely watching, learning. You know, I I you know, the reason we did we did I can't say what we did on this. It's not yet, but we did we did we did good on it. And and it's because the night before we got the slides, I looked at the slides and I thought about them from the bed. And I got up before breakfast, and I thought about how I apply that to my business. And then during the during the presentation, I've already seen the slides once or twice. I've already applied it to my business. And I'm listening with the idea of the nuance of what did you just say that's really important that was that's filling the gap. Now I talk about this because I've taken information and I've quickly applied it, but in a way that wasn't there to try to win a competition, I was actually trying to what does this actually affect and where where when and where and how? So when you're looking at how you do any of these courses or you take anything, if you take it the idea that I'm not just trying to create this document to get this document for the purposes of winning someone's hearts, think about how this stuff actually applies and think about it again and then look for the nuances that apply specifically to your product, service and industry. You have then the copyright you need to make the difference. So do number 2, which is, you know, using the data and then number 3, to be a differentiator. I like the idea of evergreen content. However, I will say some of your value added, maybe shorter posts need to be topical to take someone to evergreen content because you do need to be relevant in real time. But you what you're referring to your copy
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on-site, the evergreen. So if someone looks at it today or next week, then principle still applies. Just be I don't know. Yeah. Well, I mean, you you don't wanna go to a site that looks like it's from, like, the 2000. So one way to solve that is just, like, good UI UX, but then another is obviously, touching on fundamental issues. So if you're a data science company and you don't have anything to say about AI and machine learning, then it's hard to I mean, the story kinda closes quickly after that. So Do you know 2,000 that long ago? Honestly, I'm like, it's 20 I mean, it really doesn't. It doesn't it it feels like just yesterday. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I just remember the days where I was like, I didn't wanna get a laptop because I was like, why on earth would I wanna, like, lug around a laptop? Why and, like, what about the phones? Like, I don't wanna get text. So I was, like, a very dated author of text messaging because I was like, it's gonna distract us so much. And then now the era that we live in was, like, the ultimate distractions. But,
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you know funny? So, just digressing a bit on that idea. I don't I don't have a laptop. I work off a desktop and these cameras. And so when I travel, whatever I can't accomplish from phone, from replying to people, I don't I I can't I do. Oh, wow. And so I went to and it's great because I don't I'm like, I don't I don't carry a laptop. I'm more like just a game on the thing, quite honestly, or watch Netflix because of a bigger screen. So I don't bring 1. I don't own 1 anymore. Because I set up set up my business in a way that I don't when I travel or do something, I don't actually wanna have to be bound to a a laptop, honestly. So Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so I digress, but There we go. Now it's probably even lighter. I know. Right? Yeah. It's just extra stuff to carry. I don't wanna take it out. Travel is not worth it. Alright. I will say that the weight of laptops has come down dramatically. So you wouldn't be you wouldn't be I only buy I only buy gaming laptops because they last forever, and they're super powerful, and they're loud as hell. But they do last, but they are, like, £7, £8. So they are Yeah. That's right. That's right. I Whatever happened to civilization series? Like, I like, you never play the sin years? I do. It's actually I have the latest version. We'll take that offline. Oh my goodness. Civilization script. We forgot. Alright. We've digressed. See? We're off topic, guys. Christos, thank you. Once again, everybody, I I wanna thank Christos for coming on. I wanna ask you one final question. Right? You fast forward 1 year. What is your most proud of has happened in the in the last year?
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What's my most my proudest, say that one more time?
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You we're gonna fast forward your it's it's now August 2025, and you're looking back. What did what are you most proud of happened over the last year?
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Well, as it relates to building brands, I'd say that a little bit of a movement taking on where companies are are thinking about how do we actually produce analysis and and getting past just, oh, we need a wet paper. Let's check the box. So how how will I know that that's happening? Well, I mean, if I'm getting fewer, inquiries where it's just like, hey. We need a wet paper on this, and more inquiries around the actual kind of substantive content and methodology. That will be 1, one one proxy, one leading indicator for whether there's been some success and, hopefully, some good stories from people that have taken the class as well saying that it changed their perspective.
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I'm always waiting for somebody to say, I'm on a yacht, y'all. I like that. Like, it got sold.
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One big thing. That's another boxing.
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If you sell your company for a 1,000,000,000 a yacht, it's really not still a good investment. There we go. K.
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We can ask you a little bit about announcements.
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I appreciate you, by the way, so much for coming on today. You rock. I'm gonna put you in the periwinkle room. As I always tell people, there's no there's no gifts. Thanks, man. There's nothing in there. I'll be right back with you. Thank you so much, for coming on. Christos, rocks, listen. You if you're listen. I I know we had a little adventure to get there, but if you're looking how to better write a technical type of content copy, go take his class. It'll really narrow it down because he this guy comes from that world of taking massive amounts of data and distilling it down to something that people actually want to read. Incredibly hard skill set, to master and one that, it it'll probably, most people, they don't have they don't have it just by evidence of the fact that it's hard to do that. It really is. I want to thank everyone who's made it to this point in the show. If this was your first time here, I hope you check out some other shows and I hope you you, you know, you you stay around a little bit. I do hope, Mimi, if you can. Right? My only call to action is, you know, subscribe to YouTube channel, hit the notifications. We go live quite often. We have a bunch of new content coming out this year, and moving forward. And, I wanted to thank once again just my team and all our guests for hitting the the top 10% podcast, globally. And and I gotta tell you, entrepreneurship itself is hard. It's exciting. It's fun. But, typically, the content's boring as shit. So we're trying to make it fun and a little more entertaining, and apparently, it's working. So until we meet again, I wanted you to get out there, and I want you to go unleash your entrepreneur. I want you to cut the tide, all that shit holding you back, and get out there and go kick some ass and be the person you're supposed to be. Thank you so much for listening.
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Thank you for listening to the Never Been Promoted podcast. If you liked today's show, subscribe at youtube.com forward slash at never been promoted. Until next time, get out there and go unleash your inner entrepreneur.