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Welcome to the never been promoted podcast, where we're all about helping you cut the tie to all that holds you back. The excuses, the fears, the people, that sense of entitlement. Cut the ties so you can unleash your inner entrepreneur. Your host, Thomas Helfrich, is on a mission to make more entrepreneurs in the world and make them better at entrepreneurship.
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Sometimes technology is hard, folks, but not as hard as using PR into your strategy or is it? Hey. Thank you for coming today. Thomas Helfrich here. I am your host of Never Been Promoted. We are going to be discussing today, like, how to use PR. That's public relations in a modern marketing strategy. It is something that a lot of people don't leverage correctly or at all. And I and we have a Lilian Raji, who's an expert and has an agency and an advisory on this. If this is your first time here, I wanna be very clear what our mission is. It is to help entrepreneurs get better at entrepreneurship. Now entrepreneurship's hard, and you have to learn along the way, and there's lots of things you need to kind of cut the tie to. Right? Your fears, your excuses, some people in your life. Usually, that person is your old version of yourself, to be fair. But you're gonna have to do this, and you can do this a little bit more effectively, you know, in these kind of micro mentoring situations like we have here with, our guests is learn one thing from their journey, learn learn one thing from what they're doing in the world today, and it'll make you just a little bit better in entrepreneurship because all those little things, if you can do them better, you'll start doing the bigger things better too. So, you know, simple call to action for me. Listen, guys. I really if you love this stuff, please, you know, go and follow the YouTube channel or go to subscribe at Never Been Promoted, is the thing. So youtube.com at never been promoted. And if you're listening to the podcast, take a moment, not while driving, but pull over, do a 5 star review. It makes a big difference for the community and the guests to getting our messages out there. Alright. Now shameless promotion. Let's go ahead and bring in Lilian. How are you? I am well, Thomas. How are you? I'm good. I don't have nearly as many books as you have, but, have you read all those books?
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I always get asked these questions. I read about 65, 70 percent of it. But you have to keep in mind that some of these I started collecting when I was 16. So 16 to whatever my age is right now it's a compilation of all that. So 32. So you've doubled in age since doing it. Absa Absa freaking lutely. Yes.
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Is there one book on there you're afraid to read? Is there one book on here I'm afraid to read? Like, you you pick it up. You're like, I just I don't know if I can.
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No. Because I'm a fucking idiot. I just rush into things. And then when I I'm in it, I'm like, oh oh, what the fuck have I done? And then I put it down. So I've all the books I've at least opened at some point start reading. Like, oh my god. This is gonna blow my mind. Let me step back. So yes.
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How many of those books are, like, 82% through?
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That's a good question. I don't, I've never been asked that one. I've been asked how many I've read. How many are 82% through? Maybe okay. If I see it, I write 65, 70, maybe about 50% of that 65, 70
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are are 82% through. Like, you got it. Like For the most part. You're like, I got it. I get it for good. Right? Yeah.
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I get it. No. One of the things I found fascinating about my library is, like, whenever I'm stressed about something, I'll come in here, and I'll just pull the book and whatever the right answer is in that book I read I I found. So which is how it ends up not being complete because, oh my god, I've gotten the wisdom out of it. Now I don't need you anymore. Go back to the shelf. So It it's the touch of the entrepreneurial ADD. That's what I tell people. It's like, you know, when you you read it, you're like, this I got what I needed out of it in this moment. Next book. I'm gonna get it. On the go. Exactly. Exactly.
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Do you, do you wanna take a moment here and set up kind of the credentials of why everyone listening and watching this should should trust Lily and Raji?
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So I started my career, what do we say? How old did it we say I am? 32? Alright. Well, 7 years ago, I started my career in, in PR. I I started my career in PR because no agency would hire me. I got into PR right after, September 11th when there was a hiring freeze in the industry. I'd fall in love with the industry, but I kept going on interviews, and I kept failing every single interview. So I decided I would start, by freelancing for a while and hoping that when the hiring fees lifted, I can enter the PR world, an agency completely ready to start a higher level. What I didn't know then is that agencies don't like to hire people who've been freelancing too long because as is true of me, we're too stubborn to do what they want. So, ultimately, I built my own, I set myself up for for creating my own agency, by the way, that I started. And everything I know from PR, I learned from the school of hard knocks. And for that reason, I do things very differently than traditional agencies. And also for that reason, journalists trust me and like to work with me because I never picked up the bad habits that happened at an agency. My company is named after me because, 1, I wasn't creative enough to come up with a different name. But, 2, because it stands for everything that I am. So when companies hire me, they have my reputation and my commitment to excellence in in what I do. You're listening to me because I know my shit. I grew entirely by referral. I've never done any big major. I've never been promoted. And so,
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everything, all my clients over the past, 20 years has come strictly from referrals because I'm good at what I do. That's why you should listen to me. Well, I I I mean, by the way, not being promoted is not a prerequisite. It just gets you into the inner circle club later. So you'll be there. Everyone else will be fogging up the windows going, what's going on in there? I'd be like, it's a bunch of integral ADD people talking about how it could have been. Anyway, you know, I I would think some of your you getting hired also has to do with your own PR work for yourself. Right? I mean, like, you know, you are you are the Taylor's kids naked, or or do you leverage your own techniques for your own benefit?
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No. I, the Taylor's kids are naked, and I have been realizing that. So my life is taking a bit of a transition over the last 2 years. Unfortunately, my mom passed away last year, and I stopped working for 2 years, to take care of her. 1 year to take care of her and then 1 year to to grieve. And then now I started coming back. So, you know, when we started this walk year, you you asked me which which website do you wanna pro want me to promote? Well, I started a second website called the PR adviser because I wanted to use it as a way to commoditize my business. My Lilian Raji Agency, I work with huge clients that pay me a shit ton of money is the official term for it. But working with clients that pay me a shit ton of money means I can only accept 3 retainer clients at a time. Whereas with the PR adviser, it's more of an advisory role for me supporting entrepreneurs. So, therefore, I can work with multiple clients, at a time because I'm not the one doing execution. My my agency does execution. The PR adviser just advises. So having said that, trying to promote the PR adviser has been a fucking headache, because I did not know how to do it. I did not know how to promote myself. I've been throwing everything on the wall and seeing what sticks. And finally, this morning, writing in my journal, I'm like, you know what? You think you know what people need, and you you do know what people need. But those people don't know that you they need exactly what it is you're they're telling them you need. So you need to learn how to listen to them. So now my my new strategy moving forward after I get off this call is to try and figure out going on a listening tour and figuring out what my target audience prefers to hear so that I rewrite my marketing materials towards what they prefer to hear. Even though I'm still gonna do what I know is right for them, but what I know is right for them and what they think is right for them is always a a different conversation. So what it is. I mean and I think the idea of PR sometimes is,
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you know well, actually, do this. Let's before we get that, define what public relations actually kind of means. What what is it? Because I to me, it has a number of meanings, but at least for with you and your clients, how how do you define what PR is?
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What what is PR? I guess my simplest thing of because I I I focus on consumer PR on my agency side, I would say it's me teaching my clients how to convince customers to do what they want. So in my case, how to convince their customers to spend 10, $15,000 on a watch. That is what PR is. It's finding a way to really connect your target customer, speak their language, and let them see your, see let them see your perspective, in a way that makes sense to them. That that will be how I would define PR.
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Got it. And for that, it there's different strategies that allow for that. It's it's changing someone's perception of something to evoke an action. Right? So and it could be from, like, buying something to, hey. This person was arrested, and now we gotta change their PR to look how good they are with the world now, and they're helping babies and giving money away. And so it's it's changing perception. But in in in this modern kind of world of marketing, you know, the old PR of maybe buying time on TV or like, talk about maybe the old you you know, the bad habits you talked about, and and maybe start where where is it going? Like, what's the better way to do it nowadays?
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Actually, I I like the old way because the new way's gotten more, complicated. Okay. Because the old way was about relationships with the press. Right? It was about giving them the right story at the right time and honoring all their demands about the story. Now because of the Internet, which I I love as a lover of knowledge, I love the Internet. I love the vastness of information that I can get, especially getting quickly. But at the same time, it's forced the the journalists that I used to work with to have to their companies, anyway, to have to find a different way to monetize because print is dying. So now in order for me to do my job, I need to be able to get my clients convinced that they need to be on an affiliate network. Because whereas a 5 years ago, I can get somebody in, let's say, a Vogue Magazine or a Robby Port, and they only have to pay me. Now I need to make sure the client is on an what's called an affiliate network because if Vogue or Robb Reports decided to do that story on them, they want a cut of the sale that happens because of that story. So it's it's made my industry a bit more complicated because it's no longer about the relationships I have with the journalists, and that is only to be to be clear, that's only on the consumer media side. On the New York Times, Bloomberg sites, my relationships are so solid because they don't have New York Times, Bloomberg, Wall Street Journal. They have what's called church and state. So regardless of who writes anything good about me, about my client, there cannot be any crossover. There cannot be any financial benefit to the article that's written. Whereas with consumer publications, now they're looking for that affiliate link to say, hey. If this article will get you sales, we wanna cut off those sales. Yep. So
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Kenneth's passion of the integrity of it a little bit. So Yeah. A lot of it actually because it's harder to trust the I mean, unless it's more of a marketplace as opposed to an affiliate. Right? Because then it's like, alright. I go here to find interesting things and done, you know, the trust media knowing that the knowing that the Wall Street earns, like, hey. Every time someone clicks this article, we're getting 82¢. It would make you not trust the article nearly as much. Like, it would not trust the content. Exactly. And But with that also said, New York Times has something called Wirecutter.
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So they they still have gotten into a little bit of the role that, the consumer magazines have gotten into too, but they're very explicit with it. And you and and to be fair, let me let me clarify this before I, you know, pitch it, before the the media people come to my door with pitchforks and and fire and and, you know, ready to throw me off my balcony. It is mentioned. You will see when you read articles that says we may get a cut of the sale. So it is mentioned
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that there is something coming. It's usually probably a small text, very gray and hard to see.
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Exactly. Exactly. But it's there. I I must legally state that it is there that for you to know that. Wirecut New York Times Wirecutter, though, is very explicit about, hey. We're if you buy something, we're gonna get it cut. But their main where I get my clients in the business sections, all that, that that doesn't apply.
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Gotcha. And so so okay. Let let's go in here a little bit. So, what's one of the worst habits you've seen in a period? Like, what's the one you just, like, I'm never doing that? Like, what's what's, it it maybe in terms of how it helps or hurts, like, or how it hurts a customer versus, you know, helps the PR agency. What's what's the worst one?
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Well, I am also transitioning into writing now. So I I have a Forbes column now. And so I I'm now, like, straddling the line between a PR person and a journalist. And so I've been really shocked by my experiences with other PR people. Very, very, very simple one that that that makes me insane. I'm part of this, group called the PR czars where it's it's full of journalists and PR people, and we pitch ideas to each other and blah blah blah. Every time I say I'm working on this story idea, please do not DM me on Facebook. Every single time, I'm sure you know where this story is going, And some fuck wad DM's me on Facebook. And it's like, you want I'm trying to do you a favor. I'm trying to help you help your clients, so please follow my instructions. And there's a reason why I don't wanna be DM on Facebook because my email is integrated to my CRM. So anytime your e any emails that come to me automatically get logged into my CRM so that I could go back and see your name and continue our conversation. That can happen with DMs on Facebook. So it's you you have these things that's like it's it's simple and straightforward. With a Zapier. Should we talk about that, how you could automate that in the background? Yeah. I don't, but I don't want to. I don't want to. Just I'm I'm doing you a favor. Right? I'm getting your client an article in Forbes that you're not paying for. So just do me this one simple favor and just email me.
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That's it. You heard it, people. No Facebook. Okay? She's Nancy Miller. You've heard it. What's what's one of the good what what's one of the new kind of good trends? You know? And I and I'm I'm make I'm making the assumption that, to me, always PR was like, oh my god. You have so much money to go do it. Both technology and this other piece, I feel like that brings in a different like, an individual solopreneur. So so maybe talk about, like, where the new benefits are and who that opens it up to with the leading question of what I said. That that was my perception of it. I don't know if that's true or not. But is that one of the benefits, or is there something that's even more powerful going on right now with with No. There there there is something more powerful going on. And but in between, as I said,
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PR originally being about journalists' relationships and building, now we have what's called the PESOL model, which I I'm a big proponent of, and it it's necessary. PESOL stands for paid, earned, shared, and owned. Paid, of course, is is simple advertising. Any advertising you do, that's paid. Earned is the traditional model of PR where we we use our relationship with journalists to get that article. Shared is a content that is made on social media that gets shared that helps promote you, which is doing more for you than a journalist, that one journalist article. So if you have something on on Instagram and one of your followers shares with other people, that's helping bring that publicity to you. And then the owned, which is the one that I'm excited about, but it's also it's also the most, labor intensive is you creating your own newsletter and getting people to follow you on those social newsletters. You having, a magazine on your website or a blog, however you wanna call it. And that is also doing the work that a journalist used to do. Back in the day, we were route we we were reliant on journalists to get our word out. Now because of the Internet, because of social media, companies can now get that same audience. And then PR tends to now be a reaffirmation of what a customer initially thought about you.
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Okay. So take me through an example. Right? So I'm a let's use an example. I'm a marketing agency. There's a 1,000,000 marketing not a 1,000,000. There's hundreds of thousands of marketing agencies, and they're all the greatest. Sorry. Absolutely. They've hired you. It's a let's call it a small team solopreneur. Like, it's just representative of a lot of US agencies. What's the scenario, you know, that you take them through to get the most value? Because I think understanding how to implement it, like, here's why here's why you haven't hired me because you think this, and this is why you should hire a PR adviser so you can get that. Like, take me through that scenario. Let me because I think in details helps understand when to use it. Because I think most people, like, I still haven't a clue where to where to use a PR person. So how do you do?
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The funny thing is, about 75% of my clients come to me after they've been burned by other PR people. I'm the one Lilian is known for getting shit done. Also, Lilian is known for not, caring about your feelings. Fuck your feelings. We have work to do. So buyer beware. I like to tell people. For me though, the way I start working with the clients is I go through an onboarding session with them, and they go through this exhaustive, exhaustive, exhaustive quest questionnaire that I give them. It makes them crazy. They yell at me. They challenge me, but I'm like, no. You need to finish this questionnaire. Because the questionnaire helps me see where their mind is at with their business. Then with and and also the question also helps us set up, the metrics for which we'll define success for our relationship 6 months down the line. A lot of agencies aren't focused on that. I I focus on that because at the end of the day, once you pay me my fee, all I care about is delivering for you. Because again, my company has grown by by, exclusively by referrals. So I live and die by my reputation. So once we're selling a fee, all I care about is giving you the results, which is why I don't care about your feelings. I wanna care about the results I'm gonna give you. So when you when I look at the, the onboarding, it gives me a sense like, okay. You're telling me that this is where you where you've tried PR in the past and it's failed. Let's explore why it failed. What did the previous agency miss in terms of communicating? A lot of the times is because the previous agency will cookie cutter you, and try to use specific strategies that they've worked for other clients that don't necessarily work for you because there's there's something missing. They're they're they're missing one one little element in in your story. To be more precise, I am part of, the venture mentoring team. It is a volunteer organization of some of the most brilliant minds in the world. All of us have reached a place in our career that we wanna help entrepreneurs really build their build their business. So we all volunteer. We all sign, an edict that we will never financially benefit in any way from the the companies that we mentor. I was in a call with, with the team, and we were going through this, case study. And and the case study was showing us about a a business owner who wanted to expand her bakery business around Miami. And, and she they do a video that that talks about what it is that they wanna do. And then everybody on the team, we have to look in and try to figure out why we would want to work with her. I was the only one on the team that saw that. She began her statement by saying I would like to serve. And for me that told me like, okay, her mentality is not about making a shit ton of money, even though she wants it. Her first and foremost priority is serving her her her customers. So from that, when we had the discussion, the the the person leading discussion, he says, we've done this case study for 2 years. Lilian, you're the only person who got that. That that was her interest was to serve the people. Whereas, and they were like, she was really patient with us, but it took some time for us to get them. But you got it immediately. Because of number one thing, that that is necessary to help anybody is that you have to listen to them. So that's what my onboarding is about. My onboarding is about listening to you. And then from me knowing exactly where you are, then it's like, okay. These are the avenues I think we need to we need to go to get you to where you wanna be. Right.
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So an example of PR that I'm going with, Okay. I get nothing for this. Is I've I've been asking the question, does water taste better out of a Stanley? And the only question I answer with or the only answer is, fuck, yeah. I would have thought that would have trended, like, instantly on, like, TikTok. It doesn't because that's the only thing I all I say is book. Yeah. I'm sorry.
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Are you are you using a video, or are you just using,
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words? It's me just going like this.
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Oh. Yeah. You're you're giving us blue steel. You're giving us a Zuland of blue steel while you're doing it. I love it. Maybe we need to reevaluate
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how you executed it. Yes. You know, but that to me is in fantastic PR for Stanley of which I just you know, it's a dream to get them to sponsor me. I don't know why because I think it'd be cool because water does taste better out of a Stanley. Alright. Let's move on.
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Before before we move on before we move on,
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this is what I would recommend you to do. That's okay. I was gonna ask you. What would the next recommendation be? That that was gonna move on. Go to LinkedIn
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and, find who the either communications PR, CMO, or marketing director is, and send them the link.
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And and Oh, are you calling Stanley? Oh, we're we're talking about how to do this. Yeah. So of your of your little
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of your little snippet and say, I would love this is who I am. This is
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I drink it every show.
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Well, I'm also on the top 10, percent, like, as you shared with me earlier. I would love to see if there's something we could do together. And that's how it gets started. Here's an affiliate link. I'm like, goddamn it. Fair enough. Well, you could try the affiliate link, but then, like, oh, yes. I'm happy to give you the do the affiliate link, but I really think there's more that we can do together. I agree. Again, don't take no for an answer. Come on now. You know this, Thomas. Don't take no for an answer. Be like, you're a spammer. Get off my LinkedIn, Jim. I'll be like, alright. Fine.
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No. I really was gonna say so what does someone do next? So so what's a good place to start? And the reason I say that is in a commoditized business let's and marketing was our example. You have a process to get them to get to know them. But from this overarching strategy, what should they be doing or what what how do you do that? Like, is it just a niche? Is it some like, how do you get differentiators through PR when you're in a commoditized business? And a lot of times, there's just not a differentiator. So how do you leverage storytelling or what you're doing to give that differentiator? Because that's what I'd wanna know. Because I'd wanna hire someone and say, hey. I want a differentiator. I just don't know how to use PR, so to speak, to do it.
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Well, the thing is you're right. Different traders are are difficult because how many companies do you see that say they're the best at this or they're best at that? The the way you do it is with storytelling, which again, you hit on that immediately. If I tell you I'm the best, then I'm gonna tell you why I'm the best. A lot of companies don't go into the why they're the best. Or they go into why they're the best because, oh, we, we work hands on with our clients. We do this. We do that. But when I say when I say I work hands on with my clients, I number 1, I say immediately, I don't care about your feelings. I only care about getting your work done because that is my focus. That is my understanding of who you are. That is my understanding of why you've hired me. So we're gonna start that, and I'm gonna hold your hand, and we're gonna get you exactly where you want to be. You're not gonna hear that from an agency. And if you do, it's not you're gonna see that the experience is very different than what the experiences that I offer. So the best way for me to answer your question, and I I'm I'm gonna go through a session with you that you you were not expecting, Thomas. Alright? Ready for it. So Let me take a water water drink. Okay. I I'm I'm fortunate you don't have a Stanley Cup, but, you know, I You know,
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know, if you upgrade your sponsorship to the top level, you get one customized for it. Stanley Cup. Oh my god. I mean, I think I'm sold. You you get it with that. You get with never been promoted on it and and your name. Oh my god. That's even better. I I think I'm sold. It's hot. I mean, that shit's hot. His water does take better out of Stanley, just so you know.
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It does.
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So, you're coming to me. We're on this call. You're like, how how can I use PR to promote myself? Right. Is that correct? Well, how well, listen. Like, when I have no differentiators real like, a real
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usually, the human is the differentiator. Someone trusts you more. But in in in a commoditized market, this is where I think PR could be effective in storytelling. I just like, to me, I wouldn't know how to do that. So I think just going through an example of here's an example, a representative example of of with a client or how you could do that. I think it's helpful to anyone listening because it understand then it it also drives the value of what PR is for an organization, which they never it's not on the road radar half the time until they have money or they're bigger. And I I don't think it has to be. I think actually there's a there's a spot for it in smaller business and for entrepreneurs starting out. It's just how do you do that?
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So for you, I would say, if you look at your YouTube channels, wherever you you you post, where are the comments that you receive about the show?
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Where they're in the comments. No one What what no one ever comments on your show? You never get Oh, they do. Yes. Some it it it's it's kinda all over the map. Like, you get some randos in there. So so we we hide quite a few and and keep the other ones in there. But yeah. But I mean, some of the
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crazy is good.
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But but we get some positives like, hey. This helps. Thanks. You know, a lot of times, it's people who are customers of our guests,
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and it's, you know, it's usually like this really helps entrepreneurship. You know, it's like it's really, you know, it's insightful, those kind of things. It's positive generally that we leave out there. Okay. So remember how we began this conversation with, I'm losing my mind in a PR adviser because I was trying to tell people what they need instead of listening to what what they're telling me. This is what applies to you. Go to your comments and see the words that they're using to describe you. And you're gonna have to go through many, many different comments and even the ones that call you an idiot. Let's find out why. Why do you think I'm an idiot? You know?
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Go through it. I never because I rules never engage. I'm like, hey. Why am I an idiot? And they don't do that. It's funny. I'd leave it out there for them. Anyway, it's because I'm not an idiot, and they know it.
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No. They just want your attention. That's all. Oh, you you were just too handsome for them and, like, you know what? I can't find get a comment one time,
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mixed steamy, which is from Grey's Anatomy. I I was like, we will show that comment endlessly. That's a good one. I've been telling my wife that for years.
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Well, there you go. That that that's one I don't wanna be a sex object. Why not? Right. Sex sells. No.
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Is that the Blue Oyster
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Club? Academy? But,
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I don't remember. Okay. Anyway Keep going. I I see you and I are gonna, like, end up you're There's gonna be an ADT fest, and then Larry's like, what the hell are you talking about? Like, this is PR, people. We just distract you until we say bye. Bye now.
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We're gonna we're gonna end up in a ADHD loop because, like, you and I Oh, we're not. We're coming back. Other. Yeah. We've got an ADHD No. No. We'll find our way back. We'll find our way back. You're right. You know, we're good. 30 days from now, I'll I'll email you. Like, do you remember when we were talking? Alright. So we're gonna come back. Okay. What do I do? How do I do it? So, again, so one of the things I'll I will also do with a client depending on what I'm getting back from the onboarding is I'll I'll suggest a survey. So for you, your survey is, you already have a a place for a survey because people are commenting. You just have to start looking at those comments with a a more critical eye. Instead of just like, oh, thanks. You said that. But look for the comments, and there are people out there that just tell you more than, like, they're just praising you. Figure out why it is that they're praising. What what words are they using to praise you? Because that will help you determine exactly your differentiator. And on top of that, you can also ask your audience, like, hey, guys. Why do you watch my show? Simple question. Like, the first hundred people to tell me why they watch my show is are gonna be entered into a contest when this nice Stanley Cup with the logo on it. I like that. That's where that's where you need to I'm gonna shoot that video today. It's like, I'm gonna send a Stanley Cup customized
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to one of your comments if you can tell me what's what's the contest. Let's do that. That's a great PR trick. I love that. We're gonna implement that this afternoon. Low budget video, putting it out in a in a short. I'm gonna give a Stanley customized, and what's the contest? I'm asking them, why do you watch the show? What's the best answer to that?
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Yes. Okay. Yes. Let me do that. And you wanna read all the answers however
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I'll read them out live, and then I'll pick it. I think that's a good one.
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But no. No. That that is a PR strategy, but we're we're or a tactic. But we are going back to the strategy of it. Alright? Don't let's not lose sight of why we're doing this. Yes. It is good publicity for you, but then you really do need to read the comments because the comments are gonna give you your differentiator. What the people say to you is like, why do you watch me instead of Tim Ferris? You know?
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This is your differentiator. To be honest, they probably should watch Tim Ferris. I should just be an additive to them.
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But what are your opinions of me, compared to Tim Ferris? You know? That that's gonna give you where your differentiator is. And it it could be the fact that Tim Ferris is way too big right now, and they love the fact that you're more intimate. And for that reason, that's one of your value propositions. Yes. Tim Ferris is a god. I am, I am godlike. I'm a god adjacent. I don't think he's a full god. God adjacent. God adjacent. Alright. And I am god adjacent like. So I am Tim Ferris before you became Tim Fort Ferris. Grow with me. Be part of my my, my tribe before I become the next Tim Ferris. So there's different ways you can do the marketing your messaging,
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but, ultimately, you wanna start with what the consumers want. I like them. I like some of the hack tricks too of I I wanna give this away. And I love the idea that you get the you get the survey of, like, give me real answers. Humor's encouraged. Yeah. Brutal honesty, also encouraged. Lying to me, tell me I'm good looking, also seriously encouraged. You see what I did there? Do you see that people so here's here's a here's a strategy. You have a strategy that she's saying. What I'm I'm gonna re I'm gonna validate what you said by repeating, make sure I got. Mhmm. Is that you learn from your audience what your differentiator is, why people chose you. And and I think probably the flip side is any honest people, I didn't choose you because of these reasons. I think if you can get that, that's awesome. That one's gonna hurt. Just get ready for that. But, like, if you can collect that data, that allows you then to focus on what the people liked so you could do more of it. The trick might be that that might be out of brand for you. And so so talk to me when it's like, oh, I love it when you go on rants about something else, and we just find that funny. But you're like but you're like, but my mission is to help entrepreneurs not talk about Stanley's. And and and the truth is, what do you do when sometimes it's it's fine, but, like, what do you do when it's maybe not in brand?
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The fact that they recognize it in you, it means that it it is in brand. You just don't realize it for yourself. So here's the thing about making money. Here's the thing about having a business. What you wanna do and what people are gonna pay for are always 2 completely different things.
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Oh, that is this that is could you say that again? That's the most truthful statement. Once again I'm I'm on full screen on that one. You go. Say that one more time.
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What you wanna do and what people are willing to pay for are always 2 completely different things. K. Do you hear that? And, again, it goes back to what I said earlier about the PR adviser and why I'm having this headache because it's like, I wanna do this for you, but no, Lilian. We want this. So now I have to refigure my my my own strategy so that I'm approaching it based on what they want. Now there is a way to give people what they want and still do what you want to do. And that that that's the the the miracle trick. But first, you have to make people like, oh, wow. I get this. I'm connecting with this. And if they if they love your rants, then by all means. Oh my god. What's that guy's name? You're you're you're gen x like me. Right? So you should know this guy. Gen x. Wait. You're 32. You're not gen x. Oh, yes. That's right. I forgot. I forgot. I forgot. If you were, you'd be If if I if I was if I was a gen x. Right? What was the dude's name with the red hair? He was on that show, about, fire firemen. Why can't I think of his name? And he's in one of my favorite love movies, because I'm twisted. But, the Thomas Kron AFAIR, what was this guy's name?
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Oh. Yeah. Right here. He's on Thomas Kron. Right here.
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Yes. They're not not the original, but the the remake with
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Pierce Brosnan. Give me one second. I'll tell you his name. Why not? On the right hand, I thought it was Julia Roberts, but or I mean, she wasn't even that.
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No. It it no. It's a it's a guy. It's a guy because he started his career, like, screaming and ranting. You know who I'm talking about. I know you know who I'm talking about. Did it just text and pop out people? Did you hear that? Oh oh my god. Oh, did that did that come out? Yeah. She got excited, and the New York came out right in her. Alright. Yeah. If I'd been drinking, though, the Nigerian would have come out because that's what I really am. I'm Nigerian. Dennis Leary.
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Oh, Dennis Leary. Yes. Yes. I don't know. That's what's through me for a week. A ginger. Oh, you don't like him anymore. You don't like him anymore? Well, he's a ginger. Who can like gingers? I'm saying that because my 100th, episode is gonna be Wes Bergman. Wes Bergman is a ginger that was on reality shows, and so he's on tonight with me. Anyway, I'm gonna I'm just in the mood to make fun of gingers right now. So I keep going. Dennis Leary, I like you. You're he he is a great ranter. Please continue, though. So the point was he was a ranter, but
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or how was rancher, and he built his his career around being a rancher. Him and that other guy, the Sam that guy is dead. And Sam? Something other. I think he's dead. Yeah. Sam Kinison? Yeah. He was dead. You scream. Yeah. So they they built their business, and I'm pretty sure their career did not start with them being a renter. But they leveraged that what people enjoy. And now Dennis Leary does not rant anymore. You see how he just worked his way into what he actually wanted to do.
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Oh, I didn't realize. He doesn't let rant anymore? By the way, I don't see him in movies anymore because I like movies. You're proving your point. Yes. Yes. Actually, here's another example. So we're gonna use movies. So so we're gonna tie this back to entrepreneurship. So Jim Carrey, everyone loved because he was kind of a crazy comedian, did, like, funny things and kinda did crazy contortions. You don't hear from him as much because he wanted to become more of a serious actor, and people like, yeah. I don't want anything to do with that. I don't wanna buy that from you. We wanna buy the Jim Carrey we knew. And so his touch of crazy combined with trying to be serious didn't work. And I think the idea is that you you you know, the Venn diagram of what you're good at, what your people wanna buy in the market, you know, the little Venn that sits in the middle of where you should focus, it doesn't always line up. And what you're saying to me, though, is PR can help line that up for you. And so you can at least break the tip of spear to get them what they want, and then they can discover more that you have.
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Yes. And if I I don't do personality PR because I'm I fucking hate celebrities. It's babysitting. I I don't like it. But if I had been advising Jim Carrey at that at that time, I would have told him to continue doing serious roles while doing the comedic ones. So because he went from being a comedian to doing that, was it the eternal sunshine? Yeah. It's a That one and then the other one. The the one that pre pre, that, predicted reality TV. What was the okay. Yeah. That one. If he had continued just balancing both, eventually, people were been able to start seeing him as both. But it seemed like he gave up. Now I don't know enough about Hollywood. Maybe he just couldn't get hired for more serious roles or or whatever. But that's what I would do. It's like, you give people what you want and then introduce a little bit of yourself. Give people introduce. Give people introduce until they start to see you as both instead of just one and the other. And then when they start seeing you as both, they can start going more towards what you really wanna do. I I think A lot of actors have done that. A lot of actors have started, in comedic roles, and now they're they're taken more seriously. And, well, I think the good example that I think you'll see him pop up in as he gets older in more like the dad role, smaller roles. Like, hey. It's Jim Carrey. And, like, they'll he'll reinvent. Now to do that as a business owner, sometimes you have these pivots where you need to reinvent. I believe this is when you should be, by the way, in PR because you can't wait 10 years to get older and do these things.
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I'll give you an example. In our own company of Instantly Relevant. Right? We've forever been a growth LinkedIn agency. We have these services that help people grow on LinkedIn without being spammy. Takes a ton of my time. It's not the most scalable business. It's a great business, but it's not super scalable. And it, like I said, takes lots of my time and my passion is around helping entrepreneurs. And so they're they're competing on time. But we have a new line of service that has the ability to well, we we verify PR agencies. We verify marketing agencies' ability to deliver. Because it gives you a big cred to say, hey. These these people actually talk to my customers and they can't be bought. Like, we pay for the service of you know, but it doesn't guarantee I get verified. And the point being is that is a different brand. And this is where PR might be a good spot for us even to be like, hey. Let's go get you out there in a new light to say this is how this is how you would do that. Here's an article you could run about the importance of these things. So so in our own example, I see the need of getting out there and rebranding away from my personal brand, but more around a service. And I think if you're an owner out there and you're thinking of a new service or you have something out there, I think this is where you could leverage public relations to help drive that a little faster, not having to wait organically 4, 5, 10 years when someone already knows you in other light. You. I I assume you've seen stuff like this in other businesses where they've made a pivot. They're trying to get something new, new market.
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Can I share with you a little bit of trauma I had recently? Yeah. I mean, I mean, listen, the more you bleed on the table, the better the numbers get on the podcast. Okay. Perfect. Yes. Absolutely. Alright. Well, we'll have a therapy session. So I was invited to do a webinar, that teaches people how to get PR for themselves. And it's it's contractor. I'm sorry. Not contractors. Consultants. Independent consultants. People who left McKinsey and and Bain and all of that stuff to go out on their own and be entrepreneurs. So I spent time putting together this this lovely webinar full of details and, only 2 people showed up, which this is the first time I've ever had a webinar with only 2 people show up. Usually, I get a 100, 200, everything. So I I'm I'm traumatized by the experience. So I'm gonna try and learn from my pain by sharing what the people what the 998 other people that should have shown up for that webinar missed, which is what you need to do as a business to get your own publicity. So if you don't if you don't mind me sharing some of the tips that the 998 people missed by not being on the webinar. I mean, listen.
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I don't want you to have another traumatic experience. If I said no right now, I'm a giant dick. But, actually, I do wanna know because I think this is the point. I want like, give me the top three tips because I want them to contact you to get the other ones. So here are the three things that were most important to that webinar that the arrogance of Boston Consulting Group and McKinsey and what have you. Those dick wads who can't be on So what? I there's only, like, a handful of ones that I would probably talk to ever because they are very douchey with their Harvard degrees. No. But these are people who've left them. I know. They got fired. We don't wanna talk to them. They're losers now. You know it. That's why they they had a fear of being found out. They had giant imposter syndrome. And and the douche do you see what I'm doing right now? I'm not being a nice person. But the truth is some of these people are very arrogant. Anyway, please continue. Not all of them, but the advice they didn't get, we're gonna get for free right now. Go. I think you and I would just cause so much trouble if I if I really unleash my mouth.
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But I I'm gonna I'm gonna keep the PR role and not aim to You gotta you gotta keep on brand. I'm not gonna let you engage the mean girl in me because I am too I'm trying to draw her out. I see it. I'm throwing Yeah. I know you are, and I'm like Little worms in there.
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Time. She's gonna take that bait. No. Yeah. No. This is gonna be forever. No. I'm I'm trying to I'm trying to bring her out. They're on a rant rant, but she won't do it. Alright. Give me the top 3. I gotta be conscious of time here. Give me the top 3. Okay. This is what we're gonna do. You're gonna be the top 3, and and then you're gonna tell people how to get ahold of you so you can actually help them really navigate. Because I will tell you people listening, I've had some conversation with her. She's brilliant. And she to say that you care about your customers, it might be an understatement. And it may be almost a little bit stalkerish, how much you like them. But top 3. Let's do it. But don't forget. I don't care about your feelings. I only care about results. That's why they should hire you because you're gonna you're gonna give them what they need in the context of what they want. So here we go. I'm gonna traumatize them, but their business will never be better. So
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Top 3. Do it. Here we go. Alright. Number 1, make a list of all the journalists, writers, articles, blogs, whatever that you you follow. Who's the person that writes it? And start to stalk them. Stalk them all over the Internet, on LinkedIn, on, social media, everything, and start building the relationship with them. And when I say build a relationship, I mean start commenting. And when I say commenting, I don't mean you're right, and that's great idea. No. Actual thoughts about, wow. That was a brilliant thing that you just posted about, and this is why I think it's brilliant. You start building a relationship that way. So that when something happens that we in the PR world called an opportunity to news jack, News jack means that, something is going on in the world right now, and every reporter is looking for a source to talk about, to get their insights into their vision and their thoughts about it. Journalists are looking for somebody to talk to. So when you start building these relationships with them, you can immediately email them and message them. Like, one of the examples I gave, if everybody saw the Olympics, we all know about that breakdancer that, you know, I I I don't think I need to elaborate more on the breakdancer. But a a way that a person could have news chat is a chiropractor could have contacted the New York Times, not New York Times. Excuse me. The Today Show and say, hey. I'm watching that that breakdancer. She's doing so many moves that are very detrimental to her body and her back. And I'm seeing all these TikTok peep video of people hurting themselves trying trying to copy her. If you bring me on your show, I can talk to you about I mean, tell your viewers about ways to protect themselves while they're trying to break dance. So that's an example of newsjacking. So we have this going on right now, and here's a way for me to get on your show or even an article if you're working on an article on it and say, hey. These are my thoughts on it. So the value of all this is that now you are getting people to know about you beyond referrals, beyond cold calling, beyond anything. Somebody reads you, sees you on the Today Show or whatever show, or reads about your comment, they're gonna go to your website and try to figure out who you are. So those are the 3 things I have for you. And I think that's the thing.
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I got the first two, which is, stalk them legally with comments. Stock them legally. Oh,
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contact them to News Jack. And then the third, it well, actually, oh my god. Which of the 3rd am I gonna give you?
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Oh, paying attention to, what's going on in the news and then and use that as a way to news chat and get yourself So it's it's it's tied to that. So I think the third was actually then take the action of emailing them and being being a pundit of some sort, some kind of expert that can further the conversation.
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Exactly. Exactly. I I
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because the journalists are looking for, okay. We've already killed the core of the story that it was funny. It was this, got kicked out. You know, single handed, we got breakdancing removed, which probably shouldn't have been in there anyway. Because wrestling's out, which was action Olympic sport, but yet breakdancing's in, which I don't know how anybody beats American breakdancing. I it shouldn't even be on the map. I we made it up in the eighties. It became drug gangs. It was great. Anyway Yes. The point is, mean, electric boogaloo didn't get paid. It whatever. Let's just move on. Actually, I You know, it's right now. When I was getting had Michael Jackson glove, 100%, and, you know, the pants, MC Hammer pants, all that, but I really wanted to get sponsored by a refrigerator company so I can get big pieces of cardboard for my break dancing. True statement. 100%. Cannot believe I just submitted that. Last have to promise. Alright. How'd they get ahold of you? Which would you and who who do you want to get ahold of you and where?
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Alright. If you're a big company who's tired of agencies making you promises and you you really actually wanna get results, big agencies go to Lilianwodgie.com. That is my big agency. That's me doing everything for you. If you're an entrepreneur still building your business, still understanding, or if you can't afford $10,000 a month, I'm sorry I have to say it, go to the PR adviser. That is my advisory section, which is how I teach you how to do everything you need. We have consulting calls, but you're the one doing the work. So Lilianrogi.com, if you want me to do work for you, the pradvisor.com, if you want me to help you do help you figure out what to do and you do the work. Awesome. I appreciate it. Lilian, thanks so much for going on the show today. You rock.
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Thank you. Oh my god. An hour already? Wow. Yeah. It's amazing it's amazing how much fun it is spending time with me. That's what I tell everybody. Absolutely. I see. I'm gonna put you in the, periwinkle room. I'll be right back with you. Thank you so much for coming on. Listen, everybody who made it to to this point, thank you so much for listening and watching. They've never been promoted. You know, we're here to help entrepreneurs get better entrepreneurship through some humor, through storytelling. You know, I would you know, if I have any questions on PR, I would I would tell you, like, reach out to Lilian. She she will shoot you straight. I I kept trying to bait her to do more of her her rants, which which because they're hilarious, and they're very honest too, which is fun. Get a hold of her. You know, at the at the sites we've mentioned there, I'll put it up one more time. It's pradvisor.com. If you're a smaller organization looking to figure out how to use this stuff, and also lilianraji.com if you're a little bit bigger and, you know, and you're you can afford actual proper PR strategy, you know, execution, get a hold of her. Everybody, thank you so much for listening. Get out there until we meet again. Go unleash your entrepreneur. Go cut the ties, all that crap holding you back. Be free from it so you could be awesome and be great. Have a good one.
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Thank you for listening to the Never Been Promoted podcast. If you liked today's show, subscribe at youtube.com forward slash at never been promoted. Until next time. Get out there and go unleash your inner entrepreneur.