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Welcome to the never been promoted podcast and YouTube channel. I'm on a mission to help you cut the time to all the things that are holding you back so you can unleash your entrepreneur. Welcome back to Never Been Promoted Remind. I thank Carter Fox for giving us that piece of bass. He's a traveling soul. Not the fullest. Soulful Blues. I know he's awesome. Check him out. Carter Fox. I'm staying in Rome. He travels around and plays bass everywhere. He's really cool. He's been on the show too. And I was like, man, you're an interacting entrepreneur. Give me some bass funk. He did. I am Thomas Helfrich, your host. If you've never been here before, we need to be clear on our mission. It's to help entrepreneurs get better at entrepreneurship. And entrepreneurship's hard. There's all kinds of things that get thrown at you. Sometimes literally, lots of emotions ride and all those other things that happen along the way. So it's not all roses. But along the way, you're gonna need to cut some ties to unleash your entrepreneur within yourself. And those can be fears you hold on to excuses you make, maybe in senses of entitlement you might have, and also maybe some beliefs or, things you've been taught by people that you need to let go. And today's discussion specifically is gonna be around this idea of retirement, this life of leisure kind of how it it's kind of a lie we got sold and what you could do about finding an encore career, be happier, healthier, and, feel more fulfilled. Take a moment if you can, you know, just hop on to the, you know, our youtube.com and, and and just take a second if you can just just, you know, follow the channel. It's the only call to action I have is, you know, go to youtube.com@neverremoted. Subscribe it. Hit the the old follow us kind of deal and, keep keep up to date. Thanks again, for listening. Let's meet our guest, Jack Calhoun, Atlanta, Georgia, right here at Backyard. How are you doing, Jack? About that, Thomas. We don't meet many fellow Atlantans around here. We don't leave our homes. It's great. Jack, you're the founder of the Encore Lab. Is that correct? Encore Career Lab. Yep. Career Lab. Sorry. So that's why I didn't say it out loud because I forgot it. Oh, no. I was doing my intro. I'm like, oh, I could switch over and look. Oh, good. Ask him to blow it later. Listen, guys. Everyone's imperfect except Jack. So, Jack, don't mess it up today. Before we get going and and learn about what you're doing, the idea of this, you know, this encore career, in in your career is is we need an icebreaker. Right? I think Alright. Every every is this a shirts on or shirts off meeting first? That's my icebreaker.
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Shirts on, pants on. So Gotcha. That's just kinda I roll on kinda old school that way. Yes. Plus nobody wants Who in Atlanta
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has the best barbecue?
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Oh, you've touched on a topic I'm very passionate about. I would have to say Rodney Scott's, which has just come into the scene recently. They're down near, Mercedes Benz Stadium, and Robbie Scott is from the, I think it's the Georgetown, South Carolina area. And he is old school whole hog, and I believe he's won a James Beard award. And so I was very excited when he opened one up recently. So big fan of that, and I'm a big fan of, DBA barbecue, which was in Virginia Highlands, and it's moved to my neighborhood. So that was very convenient. Probably not great for my waistline.
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I don't know. It's just meat.
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True. It's what you what you get with it. Right? How many,
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ounces does it take to trigger the meat sweats? And, actually, it's not ounces. It's ounces and time, so you need to combine both.
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Yeah. I don't know. I I don't know that I've ever actually contracted the meat sweats despite what you might think by my appearance, but,
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I would say it would be well north of probably 20 ounces, I would think. Yeah. So we probably should move to pounds at that point. Yeah. Yeah. You're welcome. I guess, you know what, though? I've definitely you know, I've gone to Folge de Chao or and, you know, they try to bring you all the stuff you don't want, like chicken and but if you give me to a barbecue and there's brisket, you're gonna it's gonna be like my my Slovak originally she's from Slovakia. You take her to a party with dancing. The only way to get her off the dance floor is through an authority or literally the bar has to close. And so for me and brisket, you're gonna have to run out of brisket, or I'll have to be so socially awkward that I've eaten £6, and I'm actually sweating in in a coma. Yeah. I'm gonna quit eating it. That could be awkward at a party. It is, especially when you're not invited to. So, the your Encore career, take a moment. Give me the pitch on it and then back up enough where it makes sense to explain how you kind of got there to found in that.
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Yeah. Basically, what we we work with, people who've had successful, you know, careers, business careers, corporate careers, professional careers, physicians, accountants, whatever, and are approaching, you know, traditional retirement age. Really a lot of people are late fifties, early sixties. You know, traditional retirement age is considered 65, But they can see it coming. And, you know, there's this, I think, realization that they don't wanna just stop doing anything, meaningful, productive, that gives them purpose and a sense of accomplishment. And so but then they don't know what that is. And I think that's a big challenge as we get older because in our thirties and forties, twenties for sure, you know, it's not hard to come up with your vision for your future. You wanna, you know, get this title or that position or, you know, you wanna move to this house of that neighborhood, and and so your goals are very tangible. When you get into your mid late fifties and beyond, they start getting more intrinsic. You know? It's about giving back and, meaning and purpose and things that are hard to quantify. And so, you know, Encore career lab is dedicated to helping people, who are coming out of their careers reinvent themselves and create or find, you know, their dream Encore career that gives them that sense of meaning and purpose and, you know, income to the extent of however much they need. They can carry them, you know, well into their sixties, seventies, eighties. You know, there's just no telling. There are plenty of people, like the Rolling Stones, who are working well into their eighties and beyond because it doesn't feel like work. Right?
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So what do you want How did you how did you come up with it, Phil? What was your what was your trigger kinda calling event?
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Well, as with many things entrepreneurially, it's going through a painful experience or a challenging experience yourself and realizing that you've learned a lot and you've got a lot to share. I spent 20 plus years, in the wealth management business. I was the managing principal of a registered investment advisory firm here in Atlanta. And when I was about 50 ish, we had a chance to sell the company. And I had been doing it for 20 plus years. I was kind of a creative and, an unusual person personality type in that industry. You know, I liked the work. I liked clients and and and really liked my my colleagues, but, you know, I was just sort of ready to do something different. But what I didn't do was define what different was. You know, I thought, well, I'm a creative guy. I'll figure it out. It'll be fun, you know, reinvent myself. And I really underestimated the existential experience of leaving your career behind. It's it was very disorienting. And I took it for granted because I I didn't think of myself as a big, you know, egomaniac. But we all have an ego, especially if you've, you know, invested yourself in your career. And when that goes away, then you suddenly start to get into that, you know, who am I without my career kind of stuff. You know, and then the other thing is I equate it to, you know, sitting at a computer with a cursor blinking and somebody over your shoulder screaming, write a novel, write a novel. It's like, what do I write? You know? Hell. It's overwhelming sometimes. And so I went through what I call this wondering and wandering phase where I tried to figure out, you know, what do I wanna do, and I started went back to creative writing, which I always enjoyed. But that was isolating and kinda lonely too and felt disconnected from people. And then I went and started a consumer product, for outdoor cooking, grilling, and smoke, which was, a Wi Fi and Internet enabled cooking thermometer, but I had zero experience in b to c. But I knew the opportunity was there, so, started up an enterprise. We created it, you know, and people loved it, but, you know, the the market moved against me, basically. And we had the steel tariffs, and we had a lot of steel on the construction. And then, Traeger and other companies came out, started integrating that kind of technology into their smokers. And so I was kinda left in this widget business, and I'm not really a widget business kinda guy. And and so I just realized that had been a wrong path for me. Yeah. And so, you know, at the end of that, I had to kinda take stock and actually worked with a coach who kinda helped me walk through it, you know, and I I realized that I really missed working with people to solve high level problems. I just didn't miss being in the money management business. And so I also realized that, you know, in the, I don't know, 8 years, the intervening 8 years since I had sold my company that I had learned a lot, and I realized that I wish there had been a process and a strategy to guide me when I saw the company so that I was well positioned for this next phase of life and wasn't just gonna go in kinda dabbling and guessing and seeing, you know, what opportunities arose. And that was kind of my moment when I realized that I knew exactly the kind of program I wished I'd had, and so that's what I've created in Encore career lab.
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It's amazing how that works with, like, the the book I I write with Never Been Promoted is the book I wish I would have read. The podcast I'm creating here and YouTube channel is, man, I wish I had some place. And they exist, but I just didn't find it or I didn't look for it or whatever it was. But it's it oftentimes your ideas for entrepreneurship come from of just your own pain of what you solve. Yep. And then also the realization, like, wow, that's a pretty big market. And even there's it's somewhat saturated. You're like, I think I have my own spin on it. You don't need a ton of customer. Because where you are too, right, in your career and I'm sure the, the Wi Fi thermometer experience wasn't a free event. I'm sure that was No. It's not free. Keith Richards once said it's the price of an education. So It was. Yeah. It was I I know you kinda glossed over that, but that was not a that was not a place where you're like, well, I guess I gotta go back to work maybe. But, the point is you you spend some capital that you're okay risking, and you discover something. So though though you didn't it wasn't your you you shouldn't have been in it, you say, but but it brought you where you are. Right? Right. Right. And I think that's kind of the part of the your career curriculum is you might take a couple shots at it. Right? I mean, like, you like you you'd like gonna help them guide them, but it's more of a thinking process of how long do you go until you say that's right or wrong. It's identifying what you liked about working, which was with people solving problems less so of the industry. And if you've gotten to some kind of level of economic wherever, you can do it because you want to do it because it keeps you interested and engaged versus I have to do this because I can't survive otherwise. And so Right. So to me, talk about your curriculum a little bit of how that applies in those types of scenarios.
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Yeah. I think what people get wrapped up in is that they're desperate to figure out the what. Right? They get to the end of their career. They don't know what the what is gonna be next. That's a foreign experience for them, especially if they've come out of corporate or they've been a physician or whatever, and and it can be paralyzing. And so, you know, I didn't come up with this concept, but I agree with Simon Sinek and and and a number of other peoples is, you know, start with the why. You gotta figure out why you wanna do something next before you figure out the what. And so that's a big part of the beginning of our process is is going through a lot of kinda discerning self reflection. It's not as woo woo as it sounds. It's really just trying to kind of do things that we don't normally do ourselves. You know? And especially at this age, tapping into and and uncovering this wisdom that you've acquired over the course of your life where you're you know, we feel like we've got a lot to offer. People that are just going into experiences that we've already navigated, and kind of doing an inventory of those types of things and getting in touch with your, you know, unique abilities, your zone of genius as they say, and figuring out what you're not just really good at, but, like, uniquely good at and try to to mesh these passions and these experiences with your unique abilities, and let that be the guide for where you're going next. And that's when we get into kind of the action part of the process, and strategy because you really don't wanna do that until you've got a sense of the why.
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Do you do you recommend when someone say exits business to say, hey. This is something I want you to come do in 6 months, but next 6 months, you know, go play golf, go travel, go get the or is it it's it's are you saying I guess, what works? Because I think it's good to take that break if you can afford it. Right? And you can do it to get that. But what I think what happens at least the guys I'm not to that age yet, but, like or economic space, right, is to guys I mean, by people get to that spot and they're maybe one spouse wants to go become this because maybe they've lived a different life than the person working the whole time. What whatever the situation is. And they get there, and it's fun, but then it then it becomes boring. And then, you know and what some of these entrepreneurs have described is they felt like they were dying inside. Like, they were just like, oh my god. It's so it's so boring. So Yeah. Talk about when to engage versus and be more intentional about it maybe from a year off versus life off.
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Yeah. I I think it's a both and and not an either or as the popular phrase goes. I think you can have both the fun and the freedom that you've been craving, when you when you do leave whatever that career was behind, and be proactive in your planning. And I think the biggest challenge people run into is it does not take long for inertia to set in. Careers are so demanding these days, you know, we're on the grid 247 in almost any career you're in. And as soon as you get any distance from that, you realize most everybody realizes they're exhausted. And, and so that's that sort of bucket list phase where we wanna play the golf and take the trips, and it's great. But it doesn't last nearly as long as you'd think. I mean, that's the conventional view of retirement. Right? Now I do that the rest of my life. What I like to ask people is, have you ever been on a vacation that went a couple of days too long, You know? You start getting antsy. You wanna get back to your life. Imagine you do that for a quarter century. You know? That's the way you feel for a quarter century. And and that's the part of the myth of this, retirement of endless leisure. So I think it's fine to give yourself a period of time. I think it's important to define what that period of time is. You know? Is it 3 months, 6 months? I wouldn't go too long. Because before you know it, couple of years goes by, and then you really lost your momentum. And then, you know, we just get in our comfort zone, and it feels like it's a herculean task to climb our way out of it. Yeah. That's that's where I'd be concerned is you take you know, I I go out of town for a week for even work.
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Just trying to get my routines back in order. It's like, oh my god. I could imagine taking off 3, 4 months and being like unless I was literally like, I wanna take 3, 4 months so I forget everything so I can go rethink everything. Yep. There's probably some healthiness in that. Talk you talk about this the the kind of the the life of leisure in retirement, the the lie that's been told. You you wanna give the little you know, we're talking off camera, and I thought it was I hadn't realized that perspective. Why that lie? Why that's a lie? Like, why that was being sold to us?
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Yeah. There's a book called the longevity economy by Joseph Coughlin, I think. I'll try to stick a link in there before we get done. He's the director of the MIT age lab, so, you know, academic lightweight. And he wrote, a book about how this whole retirement sort of mentality came to be. He didn't call it a myth specifically, but I think it is. It came out of the Social Security Act, you know, which was 1935. And we're in the throes of the great depression. We're in the throes of the Russian revolution. The 25% unemployment, and people that were, I think, under age 25. And the average life expectancy was 62. And so, you know, it was a heavily manufacturing based economy that we were in in agriculture. You know, people that made it to 60, 62, you know, weren't physically worn out. Right? They really probably couldn't continue working for the most part. And so, you know, Social Security created the social safety net, which was great, and and and it's really been important for, you know, millions of Americans, but they snuck an earnings provision in there, an earnings test that if you made really anything that amounted to any kind of money, you weren't eligible to get your benefits when you turn 65. And that was intended to force people, older people out of the workforce, make make way for the younger workers who were lower paid and also sitting around, you know, being influenced by world events and get them in the workforce and being productive. You know, an average age life expectancy is 62, You know, you make it to 65. You know, there's nothing wrong with, you know, kinda cruising on in. Everybody was smoking and drinking and, you know, it wasn't a lot of recreating going on back then. You know, but over the course of the next 10 to 20 years, really 20 to 30, we came out of World War 2, life expectancy started climbing, you know, medicine was improving, people were slowly, I think, taking better care of themselves. So you started to get up into the seventies for average life expectancy. And all of a sudden you had, you know, these legions of people every year that were being forced to stop working when they turned 65 that were sitting around for extended periods and were just bored. And so, you know, per the longevity economy book, policy makers went to industry leaders and said, hey. We gotta keep these people occupied. They're they're they're restless. They're not happy. They're voters. You know? And they encouraged them to create this concept of retirement as a stage of life. And when I read that point in the book, I had this huge moment. I was like, that's where it came from. And that's where, like, the Del Webb community started to come in. And this notion that we wall ourselves in with these 55 and older compounds when we get to be an age and we don't want younger people around us. And, you know, they created these advertising campaigns that were sort of at the polls. You know, either it was this life of frolicking about, you know, in amber waves of grain or funeral insurance and keeping your feet moving and, you know, stairless entry tubs. And these are the two extremes that old age is portrayed at or or, you know, senior years, and it still is today. Right? I mean, if you stay home and watch cable TV or, you know, whatever, you know, off channel TV when you're home sick one day, that's all you see are those types of ads.
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And That that and pharma.
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That and pharma. Exactly. Pharma owns a daytime TV I find. They do. And so in the meantime, what's happened is, you know, if you make it to age 60, you have a life expectancy as a man, I think of 84, a woman 86. It's only gonna get longer. Right? As, you know, AI technology, you know, people taking better care of themselves generally. It's not gonna be uncommon to be living mid nineties to over a 100 in the next 20 years. And our our kids' kids
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kids are on that path for sure. Yeah. It's not that uncommon
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now. Yeah. But we're still stuck with this antiquated notion of this life of endless leisure where, you know, you've paid your dues, now it's your time to recreate. Well, when it was a couple years, that was fine. When it's 25, 30, 40 years, that's a recipe for I mean decay and dementia. Right? Most people will not have
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enough money to retire to live to 84, like, not even close. And they become financial burdens, which really creates a bigger disparity between those who have and have nots and crushes middle class even worse because the kids end up paying upstream for health care. Anyway, we won't get down that political road, but the point is the,
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it's a big problem. And It's a social issue, not just an individual issue. It really is. Exactly. And I think
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I I think taking a break and rethinking it in the you know, I'm 48, right, almost 49. I'm I could see, like, you know, you know, I'm like, man, I'm 58. Kids are kinda I could rethinking what I'm doing again. No question. To maybe not be stressful or have to be home or whatever. But the idea is I'm gonna do something that, you know, keep keeps the bank accounts at some reasonable level because you're gonna be cognitively there to do it. And once you start slowing down or really just don't have the patience, then I can see, like, you know what? I'm gonna do something. I'm gonna go, you know, I don't know, volunteer more. Do things that, like, you know, it's it's helpful. It's useful. It keeps me engaged. But but my point is I can see it, and and I don't I don't I don't I I was definitely signed up with the idea of I wanna go play golf when I retire. You know, like, I'm 50. I'm retiring. Like, I'll go play golf now by hole 12. I'm like, I think I'm good for the day.
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Like, great. I'm like, I'm a little should've been a 14 hole game. Everybody would've Each team, like,
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9 not enough and 18. Especially if you hit a couple right in the woods, you're kinda like, I'm good.
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Yep. I know that feeling pretty well.
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So, anyway, my point is I I I couldn't imagine doing it all. I think it'd be fun if it was my if I hit my mind head oh, you know, I'm gonna golf. That's gonna be my exercise in the morning. Fine. I can get my head around that and probably go most days because I'd be like, yeah. That's my exercise. But not as the thing. I'd I'd have to have something else, I think, to do. Yeah.
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Absolutely. You know, I think the words that I like are agency and autonomy. Right? We wanna have the agency to do what we wanna do. Yeah. The autonomy, the freedom to to live the life we want. So, you know, we don't wanna work 30 or 40 years and still feel like we're pining for the day we can play golf at 11 o'clock on a Wednesday. Right? Or whatever that thing is for you.
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But, you know, you wanna have that. You mentioned volunteering. I think volunteering is important, but I think people conflate it with the work and the career, and they're very different. You know, it's part of So when you're, like, no longer commonly there to really, like, process the complicated problems, or you're just no longer patient enough, I may change my time to something that adds value that still feels purpose, sense of community. Yeah. Tell tell me about your course a little bit, though, if you can pivot. Like, how do they how does it work? Like, does someone come to you and just you they, you know like, tell tell me how someone interacts with you a little bit on on this path. Yeah. I mean, they're basically 3 legs to the stool.
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There are prerecorded, you know, what they call evergreen trainings that I put together, kind of best practices from people I've, you know, worked with to talk to and read up on and things that resonated with me that I thought were really meaningful and would've helped me on my journey. And that's over the course of a 12 week program. It's divided into those phases I mentioned of discovery and action and I'm sorry, vision and action. And then so that's self paced, you know, it's it's a progressive curriculum. It's released once weekly with new material. And then the second leg of the stool is a group cohort. I mean, it's really important. I've seen a lot of people getting a lot of value out of that. It's 5 or 6 people in a cohort, and everybody's coming out of a similar sort of or coming into a similar sort of stage in life. You know, some people have left their career behind, willingly, you know, and some have not. Some have been early retired, so I like to say, or downsized, but are at an age where it's unlikely they're gonna continue on with that kind of work. A lot of them are are burned out from that kind of work. But everybody's going into this next phase of life with sort of this amorphous, you know, cloudy view of what they're gonna do. It's not clear. And that's where the process really comes in. That's where the group cohort comes in. You know, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. There's a lot of energy in the group cohort. Lot of ideas flying around, a lot of support, and I think the connection's so important because when we do leave the career behind, we lose a significant amount of our social engagement and our sense of mission and connection to a cause. And people tend to go internal. They get self conscious. We're in an age where you think you're supposed to have it figured out. It can be a little embarrassing, and you tend not to reach out and ask for help. And so when you're in this group setting, everybody realizes it's not them, it's the stage of life. And that's really this sort of unique stage of life that we're as a generation going through it. Younger boomers, older gen xers, really the first group to do it. You know, even 40, 50 years ago, people weren't thinking about this kind of stuff. So, and then the third leg is a direct, you know, coaching, mentoring, whatever you wanna call it with me, to make sure we're shaping the outcomes to the specific needs of the clients or clients. You know, between the 3 sort of legs to the stool, I think people get a sense coming out of this of momentum and clarity and confidence, all of those, I think, are really important
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to having a successful, you know, Encore experience, this next chapter of your life. I mean, I love you niche to the Encore. I I see this so applicable to really thinking your career as, you know, 21 year old, 20 year old coming out of college, 22 year old, whatever age you graduate college on this. Because having that idea in mind of from that day forward, like, listen. You're not working to try to get to retirement. You're you're trying to get to enjoyment. And I this is I love that. I love that. I love that. Does this now with, like you know? Sorry. What did you say? Sorry. I missed that. I said I love that. I might steal that. Well, they should, though. I mean, like, you're you're you're it's a different group. Like but if you really don't wanna go in a corporate world, you know, I still think you should go to college. I think there's some maturity that happens there. Fun. And you learn things, but but, you know, a lot of times you have no idea. But if you don't have any idea what you wanna go do on your own and really have no sense, then go work for somebody and figure something out. Of course. Right. But but but once you get into it, maybe maybe, like, mid 20, like, you're 3, 4 years into working for somebody, you're you're in the grind. I think it's okay to think of, like, your career of right then of what is that I really you know, I went to school for finance, and I hate working finance, or I hate the people I work with in finance. They're all terrible. Maybe you're the terrible one. Thanks. You'll you'll have these discoveries you don't know until you've you've gotten out of academia, and you've you've hit the the workforce. And and and you may love it, and that's awesome. But I think I think I think this is applicable to anybody who's just like, I wanna have a better life, of career. I think and I think you should redefine career, period, of what that means. I do too. Yeah. I love the idea that, like, get this shit at retirement crap out of your head and get out of the corporate thing that's paid for the bills that that was the security you have. And what is it you've always wanted to go do? And let's go do that.
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Yeah. And I think it's just there's a a a a sort of fallacy of equating work with the work they did, which, you know, is high burnout, exhausting work, high pressure, and that becomes associated as work, and then they think, I'm not gonna do that anymore. I'm done with that, you know. But that, you know, work is really that thing to get you out of bed in the morning. Right? I mean, by definition, provides I wish I wish I knew the term besides work because
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work is not enjoyable. Right. And what I do during the day to try to make money is really what it is. Right. But it's it's even beyond that. Right? Because that puts the measure and the KPI of importance on revenue. Right. As opposed to I actually enjoy it because it's some social element. It's a thinking piece. It's it's what I do to kinda add value to the world and to my life beyond just family and friends and fun. Right? And it's there's probably an f word we could use there. Family, friends, and fun. Let's do it right now. Figure out the f word. GPT help us out here. So instead of work I mean, like, because work is the wrong connotation. That that implies you're plowing the field, you're filing papers, you're crunching excels, you're doing shit that you don't wanna do. Right. In entrepreneurship, though, you you struggle sometimes making the money you want, and you you're at the risk and you're hold all that stuff. It doesn't always it doesn't I wouldn't say it's something I don't wanna do, though, that there's a difference. There's definitely things I didn't wanna do in corporate that sucked. This is dumb. Yep. You know, flying to Germany for a meeting for 2 hours and flying home after being in India and, you know, in Australia for a week for effectively the same type of setup. Everything was fun except to me. Like, what's the point? Like, the thing is, like, why would I why do I do that? So, anyway, the point is I think the Encore career is I know I'm trying to expand your network, but I'm thinking if you're really just anywhere in your career and you wanna rethink it from people who know how to rethink career, they should contact you on this because it's Yeah. I mean, they're welcome to. I mean, we target folks that are approaching, you know, the the end of their careers whether they like it or not. But, you know, we we try to be a a resource for everybody who's going through it. But, you know, it's funny. I've I've been asked to leave about 6 times, I think, through her career. Never been promoted, hence the name of the show. But I will I will tell you, there's probably times people should came up and said, do you do you do you think maybe you wanna rethink your?
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Career? Well, I was promoted one time, and I was a journalism major, which, of course, is how you end up in the investment management business. Right. And, I went to work for a local newspaper, and then recession hit 1990, 1989. They they froze hiring. I ended up working for a trade magazine. It was just a a hatchet shop. And, it was, you know, the the the copywriters were really what we were. We were just you know, it was free circulation stuff. So I was paid $13,500 a year. And In 1999? 1990.
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Oh, even then still. 1989.
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1989. And yes. And I got promoted to assistant editor from editorial assistant. They just switched the words around and then they gave me 14,500. So that was my only promotion. And that was when I realized that eating SpaghettiOs for the rest of my life was gonna be overrated and it was time to go figure out. And ramen when it came on market. And ramen.
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I I tried to tell people, like, oh, would you leave a job for $24,000 more a year or something? They're like, oh, yeah. $2,000 more a month. I'm like, but do you realize what happens? Yeah. You only get to collect about 1100 of that, which is it'd be, like, $500 a check or so, and you're like you look at it and you're like, it's a lot more for very little. Yep. Yep.
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I don't know. It's funny how that happens.
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It is weird. On your own business along the journey, what's kind of been the biggest obstacle you've had to overcome? Personally or working with other folks? Well, even anything. Just like, you know, like, the well, probably on the personal level, just to get the business launched and get the brand and all the things you do. Like, what was some of the stuff that you've really really had a really had a fight through? Like like, almost kill it kill the company kinda idea.
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I don't know if it was killing. It was getting started. It's it's the pivot. Right? And imposter syndrome comes up for everybody when you're doing something new. And, you know, I had 20 years where I was kinda defined by what I did, and then I didn't do that thing anymore. And, you know, started ragging, and and that was sort of an artsy kind of thing as opposed to, you know, at least I didn't approach it like a real career. It was kind of scratching that artistic itch that I haven't had a chance to scratch before. But then going into the consumer product, the thermometer, realizing that I didn't like that space I was in and, and then thinking, okay. Well, I've got something here. I've got a lot I can offer people. I know exactly what they're gonna go through. I can be there and meet them where they are when they get there. But, you know, I've gotta create a program, and I've got to convince myself that I'm qualified to do it. And, you know, after a couple of years of doing this and having these conversations, you know, I realized I'm exactly where I should be. It's really exciting. But it's the inertia of getting started and believing in yourself, especially if you're coming out of something where it didn't go the way you wanted or maybe just not the way you envisioned.
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Yeah. Your your recency bias comes up pretty high when you're you're initially if you guys know this, it's kinda like you're you're more likely to have a positive or negative response to something based on what happened recently. And coming out of something didn't work. But but there's 2 pieces I'd like to talk about there. 1, just a statement. When you realize what you don't wanna do in life, that's a beautiful thing. It's huge. It cuts it's like and and I use the golf analogy. I decided I I like I love a draw. Ball goes far, but, man, I'll often lose it right, and I'll get it left too much. I was like, you know what? I don't wanna I'm just gonna take off the left side of the course, and I just switched. And once you do that, you realize I no longer wanna hit it in the left woods ever again. Right. In business, I like, you gotta sometimes say, oh my gosh. I'm never doing a product b to c ever again. Hated that environment. Even if I was successful, I don't think I'd like it. It's a big thing. Right? Like, you It is. It's huge. And because then then it takes away all those dreams and ideas you'd pinned down on all the things you were gonna do. You're like, yeah. I'm not doing that anymore. Yep. The other side is just imposter syndrome. But go ahead. Yeah. Sorry.
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Well, I I I think that, that's a big part of the, kind of the reflection part at the beginning of, you know, whether it's our program or anybody's, it's important too, which is, you know, not only what were my high points in my career along the way, where I worked, who I worked with, the kind of work that I did, the culture. What were the ones I hated? Right? Where was I out of my element? Where what were the characteristics of the people that I worked with that I didn't like working with as well as I did? And that really informs you as to, you know, going forward, what you don't wanna do, what you're not what your nonnegotiables are, if that makes sense.
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Yeah. Absolutely. You'd also be like the posture syndrome. Yeah. And and and for those of you who don't know, it's when you're kinda like, you feel like a fraud because you're you're out there doing stuff, saying stuff, and you're like, I don't know what I'm doing. I don't believe actually you can grow without that. So I think it's a very healthy thing to feel imposter syndrome because it truly means you stepped out of your comfort and you're public about it to some degree. Yep. And that's where you do the learning because you quickly go, I don't like this feeling, and you seek help. You start reading. You start, you know, getting or or you'll you'll step out completely and come out. But if you feel that, that is not a negative. You are not a fraud. Like, you know, if if you're presenting like you've helped thousands of people who have it, that's different than here are my concepts, my ideas. Right. That's what becomes. And and Yeah. And have you gotten through that fully, or you still have any tie ons on this is the, the Foster side? I think I've gotten through it fully now.
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But, you know, it's a process. Right? It's a journey. And, you know, you have to that's why the action part is so important. You have to and that's where some courage comes in. Right? You gotta get out there and start talking it up, and you gotta be willing to put yourself out there and find out where other people are and what they think. Not necessarily of you, but, you know, the concept and how it relates to them. You know, and what I quickly discovered was there aren't many people talking about this, the way I'm talking about it, and people would stop me and really be like, wait. What? Tell me what you're doing. You know? And I I started to get that confidence. Right? That that my idea had legs and that I knew that I could help people.
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That's awesome.
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But, you know, it doesn't you don't get that lightning bolt very often. Right? Where everything just suddenly, you know, you're you're totally full of confidence and you don't struggle with impostor syndrome. A lot I love and I I don't have in front of me to give attribution, but it was, impostors don't have impostor syndrome.
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And I was like That's true. Because you realize you realize where you are. And I I think it's part of I I this is something that you're going to face as, as an entrepreneur or somebody who's reinventing a career. And and I talk about entrepreneurship as part of but it's not the only path of an encore career. You can go work for somebody else doing you can go from something to sales or sales to something. So, you know, to be fair, it's not always about entrepreneurship because some people just that's that's their left side of the golf course. They've said, no. I'm not doing that again. I'm gonna work for somebody for as long as possible. You would talk about that a little bit too where you're you're you're how how do they avoid, like, the ageism factor and, like, how they think through this corporate world and and just because to me, it sounds dreadful to go back to work for somebody after working for somebody forever. But then there are scenarios that in my mind that go, you know, I probably would do that. So I do how how do you work someone who wants to go back to corporate but in a different facet? It ain't easy and, you know, I only know what I see. I'm a come out of corporate myself. But,
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it's hard just getting through, you know, the AI, the way they're reading their resumes. It's hard just to even get a phone call for people. But assuming you can find some, entity, you know, organization, whatever it is that meets your criteria, and I think the main thing is that you have, the autonomy to do what you wanna do. And I think that's sort of a nonnegotiable for almost everybody at this age unless you're just trying to keep the lights on, is, you know, I'm not going to compromise what I've worked so hard to get to this age, and, and be able to do. It doesn't necessarily mean starting some huge entrepreneurial venture, but it's hard to get that autonomy without doing your own thing, or partnering with other people and, that are in a similar phase. And I think there are plenty of opportunities to do that that don't and start, you know, a huge capital outlay and, you know, all of this concept risk and everything. You know, there are ways to, dabble and test and what I like to say, cast a wide net, and see what resonates with you and see what resonates with the market. If there are opportunities, you know, you'll find them through that process, but to not let the word entrepreneurial ship for people who've come out of corporate America, that's a you know, that that that brings visions of, you know, Uber to mind. Right? And, you know, Silicon Valley startups. And there are a lot of small ways to, experience that entrepreneurial sort of freedom
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that don't involve all that. Yeah. And how you define success, I'm sure it's part of your program too because this comes up a lot in the conversations with the people we work with where if if revenue was your only success metric, okay. Fine. You know, if you spend a lifetime getting into making several 100,000 a year, don't expect to do it on your own in a couple of years. It took you 20, 30 years to do that. At the same time, if you can replace your w two income at any time by working for yourself, doing something that makes you generally happier, spend more time with loved ones, or have freedom to go walk in the morning, whatever it is, you are winning. That is Yeah. That is a 100% success. Because to do it yourself, it means only you can fire yourself. And as long as you keep pivoting and thinking through problems, it it can't be it won't be taken away because you'll just oh, market change, the rules change. Well, how I do this now? This you you may have some dumps, dimps, and and things, but at least you'll be more in control of it.
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I agree. And I like to kinda use the reverse engineer, the the the rule of the 4% rule that we use in the financial planning, you know, calculations, which is that you can assume it's, you know, rule of thumb. But 4% withdrawal from your portfolio, you can expect you probably won't deplete your portfolio over time. But you can reverse engineer that. And, you know, if you are able to generate a $100,000 from an encore career, which is not nothing, but it's not a1000000, that's the equivalent of having a portfolio of 2 and a half $1,000,000
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at the 4% rate. You never thought about it that way. Yeah. Yeah. So if you can make a 120 k, you're doing what you're doing. You're you're you're basically and you can keep going. Just get your lifestyle set around that. You'll have higher and you'll have lowers. And if you just kinda manage it, you're Yep. And if you have anything saved, you're still in good shape.
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Yeah. Exactly. So I think it's, it it it shows you that, you know, you can stave off that,
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fear of do I have enough for a long time if you find the right path, and it's then it's work you enjoy doing. This is awesome. I I love the I I never thought about that way, but that's a that's a simple, like, the way to put perspective how big, let's say, a 120 k a year is on your own. It's like earning 4% from your you know, you're growing 2 and a half 1000000 portfolio. It's might be growing at 8. Right? Yeah.
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I mean, if you have a half a 1000000 of income, I think that's 12 and a half 1000000 portfolio, something like that. It's a lot. That's crazy.
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So Yep. Yeah. Yeah. No. Half 1000000 portfolio, I'll take you know, I always said, you give me 10,000,000 in the bank cash, not tax. It's done. Right? That's mine. I will happy walk off with, like, the 400 to 500 a year in interest and never touch that. Like, burn every dollar. You're fine with it.
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Yeah. Well, tell me how long you live, and I'll tell you if that's enough money. So
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It'll be exactly wherever that mom is. I'm gonna be like, a 100. We're not eating next week. I barked through a little fast at the casino last night. Not eating. We're gonna do a little we're gonna do a 4 day fast. No money. Once again, how do you want people, Jack, to get a hold of you and who who do you wanna get a hold of you of for your program?
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Sure. I mean, I'm happy to help anybody who's struggling figure out a career path, which is kind of what I enjoy doing. As for my target market, I'm looking for people who have been, you know, high achievers or people who've just been, you know, really focused on building a thriving career for themselves, are probably between 5565, 63, realizing that they don't want this life of endless leisure we've talked about, but don't have a sense of clarity and confidence about how they're gonna reinvent themselves, and also want that accountability and that guidance that I think is really important because we're just never as accountable to ourselves as we are to other people, to mentors and coaches and and, you know, peer groups. And so, you know, for anybody who finds that to be compelling, reach out to me at Encore Career Lab, or they can call me. Should I put my phone number up at this point? Or you put it in the show notes.
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I will just Okay.
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Let's be the end of the night.
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The inappropriate news is whip it out, Jack. Whip it out. I'm I'm not gonna say that. Your phone number, that is. Let's be clear. They can call me at that number. I'd be happy to talk to them. Awesome. Here, it's, I'll put it on there for the video. But for the audio people out there, it is 404-983-2079.
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404-983-2079.
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If you mentioned this podcast, you get nothing for it. I just want you to know that. People this isn't cheap around here. Okay? You gotta pay them full price these for that. I've a when, it's funny. When when people come to you, by the way, and, you know, you have your fees and stuff, as an entrepreneur, I've I if you noticed that as you've gone through life that you don't typically discount, like, you you know your value. You hey. This is what it is. Yep. I find that people want discounts and they kinda, like, really, like, start fighting. Like, they don't get the value of it. And I and that's usually the conversation I have with people. They're like, hey. Can you knock off $500 because of this? Like, what's the value you need to keep that 500? What's it? Right. I feel like I because, you know what I mean? Like, so when you guys go and you meet people out there, don't nickel and dime them. Like, if you see the value of what they're doing, just don't nickel and dime because it sets the tone of the relationship off that you're not really that serious about it, honestly.
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Yeah. And it's a big red herring, I think, if someone's coming into it with that mentality. You know, if anything that any endeavor you're gonna do that's worthwhile, you have to make an investment. And not only, you know, to what you're investing in, but for yourself. Right? And and how many $500, $800 programs have we done that we never finished up? Because we didn't have that much invested in them or started. Right? Yeah. You know, so I think, to me, I definitely think you get to the phase in life where you're like, this is what I do, and this is what it is. I look at it this way. So, like, if I need to go fly to
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Tulsa, Oklahoma, I'm flying there tomorrow to be on a TV show. Right? So I'm gonna fly there. I didn't go to Delta and go, you know what? I don't wanna pay 300. I wanna pay it because because I just feel like it should be $50 in certain like, I don't I I might say it's a little expensive, but but truthfully, that's I needed that to get to the next spot. I look at sometimes when people take coursework or coaching is I wanna discount that journey. It's like, no. That journey is gonna help you get to where you need to do, and it should have value. So if where you're going isn't that valuable, then don't do it at all. Right. And and and and I think the mindset of anybody who buys coaching services, you would never buy a flight and not show up just because. You you would you may look for less expensive ways from that same provider. That's fine. Right. But, you know, and and if you wanna go Delta versus Joe Bob's airline and get nickel and dime the rest of the way and not you know, you might get there. You might. You probably will, which would be best when you need to. Anyway You might.
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Yeah. I mean, I think you gotta do your homework. You gotta feel confident in the people you're talking to. But then you once you are, you should expect, you know, exponential return on the investment. Right? I mean, if you Well, I mean, I mean, I exponential, I think if some if some if someone makes back
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most coaching I I I'd say this is the end here because I think a lot of people they buy coaching, they think, oh my god. This how do I invest? I don't know about you, but if you work with me, I can save you what you would have spent in a CRM and 15 other technologies in the first meeting. Like, I know you're about to go buy that. Don't do that. That's gonna cost you 24100 a year. Like, I'll have us paid up pretty quickly just for you avoiding cost. And you'll help somebody in their career of if you go down this path, here's the real cost of it. If you do this, here's the real and some people don't understand. Like, I think people who are out there listen to me. You buy coaching, you the person you meet, the due diligence is important because they can immediately save you that return of investment on mistakes you know they know you would have
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made. Right. 100%. You know, in in the case of people I'm working with, you know, it's just, you know, there's this twin paths, you know, parallel paths. You know? You're either gonna go down the encore path, and you're gonna stay connected and engaged and productive and keep income coming in, maybe a lot of income depending on what you do, whether that's with me or somebody else. Or you go down the life of endless leisure and, you know, decay and decline and, you know, depression typically. What's the value of that investment?
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Exactly. Right. I'll leave it there. Like, that avoidance of those health issues and the dependency issues and relationship channel, like anyway. So I'm not explained by him any other. He's expensive. I don't even know what you guys charge. But my point is whenever you buy coaching services, go in with the idea that I trust the person in the program to get me where I'm going, and it will be the investment that I should have made way more earlier than I should have. So Yeah. Absolutely. Totally agree. Yeah. Thank you so much for coming on today. I appreciate it. Absolutely. Are you gonna go are you gonna go golfing later? Wouldn't that be funny? No. It's 96 degrees that exceeds my upper upper limit. But, if you have enough white claws, you won't care.
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Few more weeks, I'm back in the game.
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Awesome. Alright. I'm gonna put you in the periwinkle room. I'll be right back. Thank you so much for coming back. Good. Hey. Listen, everyone who made it this far, thank you for listening and watching. Never Been Promoted is all about helping that entrepreneur in their journey, helping you cut the tide, all that stuff and the crap that's holding you back. You know, reach out to me on linkedin@linkedin.com/thomashelfrickor/n/thomashelfrick. If you have a comment on the show you'd like to come on, go to youtube.com@neverbeenpromoted. If you, if you got a moment, follow it, like it. And if you listen to the podcast, take a moment to do a good review. That really helps the guests, our mission, and, and our and our podcast as well to get more, viewers. Thanks again. Till next time. Get out there, Go unleash your entrepreneur.